Haymarket Affair Digital Collection

Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Testimony of Joseph Gruenhut, 1886 July 26.

Volume K, 68-99, 32 p.
Gruenhut, Joseph.
Factory & Tenement House Inspector for the Health department.

Direct examination by Mr. Ingham. Cross and re-Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Re-direct examinations by Mr. Ingham and Mr. Grinnell. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois.

Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): weapons and explosives (vol.K 74), socialists and/or socialism (vol.K 69), call for workingmen to arm themselves (vol.K 94), "Revenge" circular (vol.K 77), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.K 69), McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.K 73), eight-hour movement (vol.K 77), arrangements made for the Haymarket meeting (vol.K 78), Lehr und Wehr Verein (vol.K 71), Central Labor Union (vol.K 85), Lumber Shovers' Union (vol.K 73), Spies, August (vol.K 68), Parsons, Albert (vol.K 68), Schwab, Michael (vol.K 68), Fielden, Samuel (vol.K 68), Neebe, Oscar (vol.K 68).

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JOSEPH GREUNHUT, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the people, was examined in chief by Mr. Ingham, and testified as follows:-

Q. What is your name?

A% Joseph Greunhut.

Q. What is your business?

A. I am Factory and Tenement house Inspector, of the Health Department.

Q. How long have you occupied that position?

A. Six years.

Q. How long have you lived in this city?

A., Thirty years.

Q. Do you know the defendants?

A, Yes sir; that is I know Mr. Spies, Parsons, Neebe, Fielden and Schwab. The others I might know by sight, but not otherwise.

Q. How many of the others do you know by sight?

A. I don't know whether I know them or not. I could not tell.

Q, How long have you been acquainted with Spies?

A. Well, perhaps six years.

Q, How long have you been acquinted with Parsons?

A. Ten years.

Q. How long have you been acquainted with Fielden?

A. I suppose about two years or more.

Q. And with Schwab?

A. Well, maybe two years or more. Maybe more or less.

Q. Do you know Neebe?

A. I know Neebe a long time.

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q. How long have you known him?

A. Perhaps fifteen or twenty years.

Q, Were you in the habit of meeting any of them often?

A, Yes sir, daily.

Q. Where did you meet them?

A. Maybe at meetings, or maybe at the office of the Paper, the "Arbeiter Zeitung"

Q. At what sort of meetings?

A. Labor meetings.

Q. Were you yourself interested in labor movements?

A, Yes sir.

Q. With what branches of the labor movement?

A. It used to be called in the beginning the Labor Party of the United States. It changed its name into the Socialistic Labor Party etc.

Q. You are a socialist yourself?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You are an Anarchist?

A. No, I do not consider myself an Anarchist.

Q. But you are a Socialist?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Were you a member of any groups of the International in this city?

A. No sir.

Q. Or of any of the Companies of the Lehr and Wehr Vehrein?

A. No sir.

Q. Or with any organizations of the Central Labor Union?

A. No.

Q. You say you were in the habit of meeting them at the office of the Paper--- Office of what Paper?

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A. The Arbeiter Zeitung

Q. How often were you in the habit of meeting any of the defendants there?

A. I suppose six times a week, maybe more.

Q. Were you present on the occasion of an interview between a Reporter of the Daily News and Mr. Spies?

A. Yes%

Q. Was that Reporter Mr. Wilkinson?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Whehe was the first interview which you heard between those gentlemen,

A. It was in the Office of the Arbeiter Zeitung, in the forenoon.

Q. You introduced Mr. Wilkinson, did you not?

A. Yes.

Q. To Mr. Spies?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Were you afterwards present at a conversation between those gentlemen at a Restaurant?

A. Yes sir, on the evening of that same day, I guess.

Q. What restaurant was that?

A. It used to be called Burke's Hotel. I don't know the name now, on Madison St% I suppose it has the same name now.

Q. That was the evening of the same day?

A. Between six and seven I suppose.

Q. Did you take supper there together?

A. Yes all three of us.

Q. State the converstaion which took place there between Spies and yourself and the Reporter?

Objected to by Defendants Counsel as incompetent and

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immaterial and particulary in behalf of the defendants other than Spies%

The Court overruled the objection, to which ruling of the Court, defendants Counsel then and there excepted.

A. Mr. Wilkinson the reporter, asked several questions, and they were answered. I don't suppose I will be able to recollect all of it, because I did not take at that time much interest in it.

Q. Give all that you can recollect?

Same objection and and exception.

A. Mr. Wilkinson asked him how many members belonged to the military societies of organized trade and labor unions, the Lehr and Wehr Vehrein etc. Well, as far as I recollect Mr. Spies told him there were many thousands, and thereupon the reporter him asked him whether the names, etc. residences and such like could be given, and Mr. Spies told him that these organizations although they were open for everybody, for any man to become a member, and although at meetings people were asked to become members of military organizations, their names would not be known, because they did not keep any record of names. The men would be numbered, and would not be know to each other personally except by number.

Q. Known only by their numbers?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Give the rest of the conversation, as nearly as you can recollect it?

A. The reporter asked him about the effectiveness of Dynamite Bombs, and enquired and wanted to

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know whether a small number of men on Street corners or on the tops of houses would be able to stand up against squads of po icemen, or companies of militia, and Mr. Spies took some toothpicks on the table, and laid them down so as to show the poition of armed men on the tops of houses or on street corners, and how they could keep a company of militia or squad of policemen in check. That was about all. Of course the conversation was kept on in a conversational style, half joking etc. and it lasted perhaps a quarter of am hour, while we were taking our supper and drinking.

Q. You say he used sticks to illustrate the diagram?

A. Toothpicks.

Q. How long did that converstaion last?

A. I dont suppose it lasted over fifteen minutes, while we were taking our supper.

Q. You took your supper in fifteen minutes?

A. It did not last longer than that.

Q. Were you in the office of the Arbeiter Zeitung on Monday before the Haymarket Meeting?

A. On the third of the month.

Q. Yes sir, the day before the Haymarket meeting?

A, Yes sir, I think I was there in the afternoon%

Q. Do you think you were, or do you know you were there?

A. Yes sir, I was there.

Q. Who was present there at that time?

A. As far as I recollect, I saw Mr% Spies, Mr% Schwab, and the Book-keeper

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and maybe I saw Mr. Neebe there% I think I did but I am not quite sure.

Q. What time in the day was it?

A. I think it was after five O'Clock --- may have been between five and seven. May have been there half an hour.

Q, What room were you in?

A. It was on the second floor.

Q, What part of the floor?

A. In the front part, the office of the paper.

Q. The office of the paper?

A. Yes sir.

Q. What did you say there, What conversation did you have, if any?

A, If I recollect a right, I asked Mr. Spies about his experience out there at the meeting at Mc% Cormicks Factory.

Q. What did he say about that?

A. He said he had been there making a speech on the invitation of the Central Labot union. That at the beginning there was some men objected to his making a speech because he was a socialist%

Q. Whom did he say the men were that were objecting to his making a speech?

A. Some of the Officers of the Lumber Shovers Union I suppose, but afterwards they appointed him on a Committee of arbitration for the society.

Q, Who appointed him on the committee?

A. The meeting did, and he said, that after he had made his speech, he was told by some man who came from Mc. Cormick's factory, that the police were shooting and killing a number of men, and he said that

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it looked rather strange to him that a vast mass of people would allow themselves to be clubbed down and shot at, and that people would go to such meetings in great masses without any means of self-defense, and would thereby be clubbed down and shot down and driven away like a flock of sheep. He looked very much excited, and was tired out, and if I recollect right, I dont know whether it was that afternoon or the next afternoon, he said that it would be necessary to have another editor, he was overworked--- he was too tired--- I can't recollect.

Q. At the time you were talking about the trouble at Mc. Cormicks did he say anything about the means of defense, the kind of means that could be used?

a. Well, it is such a length of time ago, and at that time I had no particular interest in keeping that in my mind; if I recollect right he didn't mean Revolvers or Winchester Rifles. He meant Dynamite Bombs. I didn't ask him that way.

Defendants Counsel moved to strike the last answer out.

THE COURT. Strike that out and let him now tell what he remembers that Spies said.

THE WITNESS. Spies said that it looked very queer to him that vast masses of people would run to a mass meeting anywhere and men would come there without any means of self defense, and would be clubbed down by a hand full of policemen and shot

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down, and driven apart like a flock of sheep; that if these men were armed they could not be driven away that way. They could hold their arms.

Q. What did he say about the method of arming?

Mr. FOSTER. Wait a minute, and let him finish his answer.

THE COURT. If that question is not fully answered, and if he said anything about the kind of arms, tell what he said.

A. I could not swear positively now that he said Dynamite Bombs---- I could not swear to that.

Q. How long since you were in the office of the State's Attorney?

A. I just came from there.

Q. Did you have a converstaion there with Mr. Grinnell, and Mr. Furthman and myself, in which I questioned you?

Objected to; Objection sustained.

Q. When were you there on Tuesday?

A. I was there Tuesday afternoon.

Q. What time Tuesday afternoon?

A. It must have been between five and six, or six and seven.

Q. With whom did you have a conversation at that time?

A. When I came there I saw Mr% Spies and Mr. Schwab and Mr. Fricke, and a good many others.

Q. Who else did you see there at that time?

A. Rau was there too I think.

Q. Do you know Rau's first name?

A. Balthazar Rau.

Q. Who else was there that you remember?

A. I could

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not recollect more than that.

Q. Who do you say was there?

A. Spies, Schwab, Fricke Rau, and maybe half a dozen others, but I did not take interest enough to keep it in my mind.

Q, Did you have any conversation at that time with Mr. Spies?

A. We spoke of the general condition, and about having a mass meeting in the open air, a general mass meeting of all people who were interested in the eight hour movement, as far as I can recollect.

Q. Was anything said at that time about his employment on the Arbeiter Zeitung?

A. Well, he said either that evening or the evening before that he would be there Monday afternoon or Tuesday afternoon, that he felt himself overworked and sick, and told Fricke there ought to be another man next day to act as Editor.

Q. Since when do you remember of his saying anything about being overworked?

Objected to.

Q, When did you first remember of his saying anything about being overworked?

A. He might have said it on Monday.

Mr% BLACK. What is the Court's ruling?

THE COURT. That is not admissible% The question is what conversation he had with him that afternoon.

Mr% INGHAM. Q. When was it you first heard any talk

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about a meeting at Haymarket Square?

A. I think that was Monday.

Q. Where was it?

A. It was at the office of the Arbeiter Zeitung. It was at a general mass meeting of all those interested in the eight hour movement, without regard to nationality or trade or occupation.

Q. What time Monday was it?

A. It must have been in the afternoon between five and seven anyhow.

Q. When you were there Monday night, what was Spies doing, what was he engaged in?

A. When I came there he was writing. He was writing for---- Well, he was about done writing some circulars that were to be printed for distribution for the mass meeting.

Q. When was that?

A. That was Monday.

Q. Did you see him do anything after that?

A. After that writing?

Q. Yes Sir?

A. No sir.

Q. Did you see him correcting any proofs?

A. Yes sir.

Q. When was that?

A. That was at the same time.

Q. That was Monday?

A. That was part of the proof of the circular on which he was writing.

Q. Now, what time Monday was it, that you saw him correcting the proofs?

A. That was in the evening sometime, between five and six or five and seven--- I dont recollect any more the time, but he was writing and reading proof at the same time%

Mr% INGHAM. That is all.

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Cross- Examination
By Mr% Foster.

Q. Would you know that circular that you saw him correcting the proof of, if you would see it?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You say you understood it to be a circular calling a mass meeting?

A. Calling an eight hour mass meeting.

Q. Look at that, and see if that is the circular, and see whether that called any meeting. (Shows witness circular)

A. I did not see it that way at all. I only saw slips of four or five lines. I did not care about looking at it.

Q. Do you know whether that is the same one or not? (Witness examines circular)

A. I guess it is.

Q. You think that was probably it?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Does that call a mass meeting?

THE COURT. What that calls for is shown by itself.

Mr% FOSTER. Q. Was anything said in that converstaion about a mass meeting at all?

A. As far as I recollect they were talking about the advisability or necessity of having a mass meeting in the open air for all interested in the eight hour movement.

Q. That was the general talk in the office there. You say in this connection when you were talking about this, Mr% Spies was there and had been writing this circular?

A. Had been writing. I did not look at his writing---- I did not

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look at his own handwriting%

Q. You saw some copy that was brought in there, what they had run off and sent down. Did you see that word there on the top, the first word?

A. "Revenge."

Q. Yes sir?

A. I cant remember.

Q. Now at the time that you were present, at the discussion over the toothpicks there, in the prsence of Mr% Wilkinson was there anything said by Mr. Spies about when there was going to be any trouble in Chicago?

A. There was no date fixed.

Q. Now, when he took up the toothpicks and spoke about how a force might be resisted, did he say that that was the way they were going to do in Chicago, or did he only speak in general terms?

A. It was a statement on general principles.

Q. So from the whole conversation, you did not learn and gather from that that there was to be an attack made on the 1st% May, and this was to be the defense?

A. No sir.

Q. Nothing of the kind?

A. No sir.

Q. You say the conversation lasted some fifteem minutes?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Lasted some fifteem minutes while you were in there taking your lunch?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Wilkinson would keep asking him about things%

A. Yes sir

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Q. Did'nt Spies tell him that there was a great many thousand people armed here in Chicago, and laughed about it?

A. I can't recollect whether he laughed about it, but that was the statement, that there were thousands of them, and did not want any secret made of it.

Q. From the meeting there that was taking place, and from your acquaintance with Mr. Spies, was he joking with this man, was that the appearance that you gathered from it?

A. Well, I would not think that he joked about the numbers, about the thousands, I would not have taken it as a joke at all

Q. You would not take that part of it as a joke?

A. No sir.

Q. Do you remember how many thousands it was, ten or fifteen thousand?

A. No% Two or three thousand.

Q. It was not something from eight to ten thousand, that you remember?

A. No sir.

Q. You say you introduced him at Mr% Spies office%

A. Yes sir.

Q. You stayed there awhile, while he was talking with Spies%

. Yes.

Q. Did he go away at the same time that you did that first day?

A. You mean at noon?

Q. When you took him over and introduced him first, before he went to lunch?

A. That did not last long--- that was a few minutes.

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Q. That was just a few minutes?

A. Yes.

Q, Then you made arrangements to meet and have lunch together?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you leave Wilkinson, or did Wilkinson go away before you did, that first time?

A. I could not tell that--- I don't know.

Q. You don't remember about that?

A. No sir.

Q. Then you met at lunch in the evening about seven o'clock

A. Yes sir.

Q. Then it was that Wilkinson interrogatd him in regard to a mode of warfare?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Which you say he explained in general?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did that explanation have reference to the city of Chicago---- was it so stated at the time?

A. He said reference in general.

Q. And Mr. Spies illustrated it by a couple of wooden toothpicks that he laid down on the table cloth?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You say that the reporter Mr. Wilkinson asked Mr. Spies whether he would give him the names and addresses of the Lehr und Wehr Verein, the armed section of the Lehr und Wehr Verein?

A, Yes sir.

Q, But that Mr. Spies replied that they did not keep the names?

A. Did not keep any names at all.

Q. It was open for anybody, and they went by numbers, and not by names?

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A. Yes sir.

Q. And therefore could not give him the names?

A. (No response)

Q. In those conversations when you were talking about mass meetings in furtherance of the eight hour movement, Mr% Spies was discussing the propriety, and was favoring the eight hour movement, as I understand?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Enthusiastically in favor of the eight hour movement?

A. Yes sir.

Q. As you all were?

A. Yes sir.


MR. INGHAM. Q. You say Mr. Spies was discussing the propriety, and favoring the eight hour movement. Did Mr. Spies favor the eight hour movement?

Mr% ZIESLER. You mean in that conversation?

Mr% INGHAM. Did Mr. Spies favor the eight hour movement?

Mr. Zeisler. I object to the question in that form.

Mr. INGHAM. Q. Was Mr. Spies in favor of the eight hour movement?

THE COURT. What did he say about the eight hour movement in these conversations? You must confine your re-direct to the same subject and the same occasion as was mentioned in the question on the cross.

Mr. INGHAM. Q. How many concersations have you had with

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Mr. Spies about the eight hour movement?

Defendants counsel objected to the question as mimmaterial. The Court overruled the objection, to which ruling of the Court, defendants counsel then and there excepted.

A. For about six weeks I met him perhaps four times a week, because that was all the agitation we had, and he was not for it in the start, but afterwards he was for it and worked all he could for it, but not in the beginning.

q. You say he was not for it in the start----- what did he say about it?

Defendants counsel objected to the question, as not proper re-direct examination.

THE COURT. Yes, that is. You have got from this witness his statement--- you have got from this witness that he was enthusiastically in favor of the eight hour movement, the defendant, and they have a right to know from the witness what the defendant has said upon the subject.

Mr. Zeisler. In these conversations?

THE COURT. Not merely in this conversation, but in all conversations.

Defendants counsel then and there excepted to the ruling of the Court.

q. What did he say about the eight hour movement at the start?

A. At the start he said it did not amount to anything, and they could not get it anyhow, and that it would be a waste of time. But eventually----

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Q. What else did he say about it?

A. But eventually he favored it and worked for it, just the same as all others.

Q. Did he say anything more about why he was opposed to it in the conversation you had with him first?

A. His statement was this, at the first meeting--- he did not believe they would get it, and then it would not amount to anything anyhow, as he said it was only a palliative measure, and was not radical enough.

Q. What other conversations did you have with him about it?

A. As I recollect I brought him a list of the different labor organizations in Chicago, and was trying to pick out those which needed orgainization, and they did not organize them for instance, the packers, and a great many others were directly organized by these men for the eight hour movement.

Q. You were in constant consultation with him about organization?

A. Of those trades which had not been organized before.

Q. When was it he was converted to the advocacy of the eight hour movement?

A. I dont suppose he was converted, he was compelled to it.

Q. When was it that he was compelled to?

Mr% Zeisler. Those are conclusions.

The Witness. I am not giving you conclusions% I am giving you the facts as far as I can understand them% I am

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telling anything else than what I know.

q. When was it he first said he was in favor of the eight hour movement?

A. I dont suppose he ever said that at all.

Q. He never said it?

A. I dont suppose so.

Q. How do you know that he was enthusiastically in favor of the eight hour movement, if he never was in favor of it?

A. I did not say that. I said he was not in favor of the the eight hour movement, it was of the eight hour mass meeting.

Q. You don't mean to say he was ever enthusiastically in favor of the eight hour movement?

A. Not that I know myself.

Q. But simply that he was enthusiastically in favor of the eight hour meeting?

A. Yes sir.

Q. That you talked Monday or Tuesday?

A. Monday before There had not been a general mass meeting until this meeting---- there were trade meetings, one trade and another trade.

Q. There never had been a general mass meeting?

A. Not at that time.

Q. When was the meeting held in the Armory --- was not there a mass meeting in the Armory some time before that, at which a number of representatives of different professions and classes of laboring men, all classes of men spoke?

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A. Mr. Spies and these other genlemen.

Q. Dont you remember that meeting?

A. I remember that meeting very well.

Q. Was not that a mass meeting?

A. This-----

Q. Answer the question--- was not that a mass meeting?

A. It was a mass meeting representing the trades assemblies not the central Labor Union at all. That was a different crowd.

Q. The Central Labor Union was a socialistic organization?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Up to this time there had not been any mass meeting of the socialistic organizations in favor of the eight hour movement?

A. Yes, there was one in October, but that was a long time before.

Q. Where was the one in October held?

A. At West 12th Street, Turner Hall.

Q. Were you present?

A. I was not there.

Q. Then when you talk about a mass meeting of the labor party in favor of the eight hour movement at Haymarket Square, you are talking about a meeting in which the socialistic organizations should take part, were you?

Objected to as a conclusion.

THE COURT. If he and the defendant in their conversation with each other said anything about what kind of mass meeting

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they were going to have, let him tell what they said.

MR% INGHAM. Q. State what ever was said in the conversation between you and Spies and the others present, about what kind of mass meeting should be held at Haymarket Square.

A. At that time we did not know where the meeting was to be held at all. It was only in consideration of their advisability of their holding a mass meeting on the eight hour movement, on the question of eight hours, a mass meeting in the open air, which of course would only be either on the Lake front or on Market Square, or on the Haymarket. There are only three or four places where you can hold it at all, but it meant a general mass meeting, without regard to the different sections of the labor movement.

Q. Was it intended or said that the socialistic organization should take part in it?

Mr% BLACK% I object to his stating what was intended. Let him state what was said.

THE WITNESS. At that time I am sure I saw Mr% Spies and Mr. Rau and Mr. Neebe almost every day, but I could not tell whether the meeting was agreed upon on Saturday or Monday, or night or day, but there was a general agreement about the necessity of having one general mass meeting in the open air, an eight hour mass meeting.

Q. You don't know whether that was Saturday or Monday?

A. I suppose it was Monday, but it was some time ago and

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I could not tell that. It was not sure whether the meeting was to be in the forenoon or afternoon or night, but at last we came to the conclusion that it ought to be at night.

Mr. FOSTER. At the time they were discussing this, you never at any time spoke about having a meeting at the Haymarket Square?

A. I never heard that word until after that bomb was thrown -----never knew that place was called Haymarket at all.

Q. There was nothing said in these discussions as to whether it should be a socialistisc meeting, but that it should be a meeting in the interest of the eight hour movement?

A. It was to be a general meeting without regard to party%

Q. You say that Mr. Spies originally was not favorable to the eight hour movement, had his reasons for thinking that it would not do the labor movement any good?

A. That is it.

Q. At the time did he suggest that, as the hours were reduced, so would their pay be reduced by their employers?

A. That was the general-----

Q. That was the general discussion?

A. That was the general discussion.

Q. As a matter of fact this Arbeiter Zeitung paper is owned by seventy five different persons, is not it, or more stockholders or shareholders?

A. I could not tell you the number.

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Q. Mr. Spies was employed as you unde stand on a salary as Editor?

A. Yes sir.

Objected to as not proper examination.

Q. That is what you mean by saying that he was compelled to adopt the views of the eight hour system?

A. Yes sir.

Q. It was the voice of the men controlling the paper that that course should be adopted by the paper, and as editor he had to?

A. I understand he was paid so much a week, and he had to do what they wanted him to do.

Q. And they were favorable to the eight hours system?

A. He was not. That is my impression as far as I know.

JUROR REED. I would like to know whether Mr% Spies stated to Mr. Wilkinson at that meeting that anyone could join the Lehr und Wehr Verein?

A. It is my recollection that Mr. Spies said at that time that the military associations were open and free to everybody, that they meet, advertise their meetings, have picnics and advertise them, and in Halls, even on open ground in Sheffield, or out on the Prairie.

Mr. GRINNELL. Q. Do you remember him speaking of Sheffield?

A. I did not take enough interest in it to keep it in mind.

Q. I want know if anything was said in that conversation as to what they did in experiments at Sheffield or any place else in the country?

Objected to.

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THE COURT. Q. Do you remember whether in the conversation with Wilkinson any reference to Market Square and Washington Street tunnel was made?

A. I can't remember now. There was so much talk that I did not have any interest keeping it in mind. I can't remember unless I would take great pains to refresh my memory.

Mr. FOSTER. Q. When was this interview with Wilkinson?

A. That was in the afternoon of the same day---- must have been the 10th of January--- I could not tell you the date.

Q. Was not talking about Haymarket then?

A. No sir.

Q. Now at the time you were meeting, at the time of this meeting at the Arbeiter Zeitung office, you as one of the parties interested in the labor movement, with others, was then discussing the propriety of calling this general meeting?

A. Calling a general mass meeting.

Q. You agreed there you would call a mass meeting?

A. That was the understanding, that there should be a general mass meeting in the open air.

Q. And you participated in that suggestion, that you have one?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Was it agreed there among you that it should be announced as an eight hour meeting, as a meeting favoring the eight hour movement?

A. There was nothing else considered at that time, except an eight hour meeting---- we did not think of anything else.

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Q. Was that to be stated in the circulars in the announcement, that it was to be an eight hour meeting, a meeting in the interest of the eight hour movement?

A. The Central Labor Union had a sort of agitation Committee that always looked to these announcements and these advertisements themselves.

Q. I know, so far as the announcement itself was concerned, but then was it talked there that the meeting should be in the interest of the eight hour movement---- was that the general talk?

A. There was nothing else considered except the eight hour movement.

Mr. GRINNELL. Q. At this meeting Monday or Tuesday that you had at the Arbeiter Zeitung office, with these men, was anything said by Spies or Parsons, or any of the parties that were with them, in regard to a meeting about, or an indignation meeting over the killing of the men at Mc. Cormicks ---- was that spoken of also in connection with the discussion of the proposed mass meeting%

A. That proposed mass meeting was to be an eight hour meeting, and an indignation meeting at the same time. They were not two different ideas, so far as I know. There was not time enough for two different classes of meetings.

Q. Where were you when you first heard that there had been some rioting down at Mc.Cormick's, and that anybody had been

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killed, where did you get that information?

A. I got it from Spies. He told me that he had made a speech there, that he had just come back.

Q. In that conversation that you had with Wilkinson in the presence of Spies, do you remember Spies saying anything to you about exercising with arms, or with Dynamite at Sheffield, Indiana, or any place in the country?

Defendants counsel objected to the question as incompetent and immaterial. The Court overruled the objection; to which ruling of the Court counsel for the defendants then and there excepted.

A. I recollect that Spies stated that they drilled there, and that one man threw a bomb which entirely destroyed four big trees. That is as much as I recollect, as much as I know just at this moment. That is about all I can tell now.

Q. In that connection, at that time or any time prior to it did you hear any of these defendants advise as to the means or the force to be employed, as to whether it was pistols, guns or dynamite?

Objected to.

Q. And in that connection as to the cheapness of these things?

Objected to%

Recess to 2 P% M%

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Court Re-assembled at 2 P.M.

JOSEPH GREUNHUT. Examination resumed by Mr. Grinnell

The last question was read by the Stenographer.

THE COURT. State the time and place. The word advice is wrong. If they said anything about those things, let him tell what they said.

Objected to on the grounds of its being direct examination.

THE COURT. That isproper. The examination of this witness had proceeded very irregularly. The examination in chief was very brief, very short. All that they wanted to ask should have been asked then, but there are circumstances that make it right, and in this instance, I think, make it right that strict regularity need not be enforced.

Defendants counsel excepted to the ruling of the Court.

THE WITNESS. I understand that arming meant, arming with-----

Objected to.

Mr% GRINNELL. Q. What did they say about it?

THE COURT. Q. What did you hear anyone say?

MR% BLACK. Q. And who said it.

THE WITNESS. I guess I could say that mr. Parsons and Mr. Spies during conversations which were carried on perhaps within the last twelve months, said-----

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Objected to as not responsive to the question.

The COURT. Any time before.

THE WITNESS. Any time within the twelve months before the Bomb was thrown, that arming meant the use of dynamite bombs by individuals, so that each individual could take care of himself without respect to any combination of an armed organization. All men should individually self help as against a squad of policemen or a company of militia, etc. so that they need not be an army.

Q. In answer to Mr. Foster, you suggested or made an answer to a question in regard to Spies being responsible for the conduct of others, that is that others compelled him to comply with the eight hour movement.

A. What I meant was this, that he was the Business Manager and Editor-in-chief of that paper, and he was paid by a committee of the publishing society, and was under their general direction---- that is all I meant.

Q. That was the Internationalists?

A. I suppose the Socialistic Printing Company.

Mr% GRINNELL. That is all.

Mr. FOSTER. You say in this conversation Mr. Spies suggested, or it had been suggested sometime within a year that bombs should be thrown for individual defense?

A. Yes sir.

Q. But there was no combination or arrangement at all?

A. No combination.

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Q. That is the poice had been in the habit of attacking meetings being held?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And clubbing etc.

A. (No response)

Q. I will ask you if you have a distinct recollection now, if Mr. Neebe was at the Arbeiter Zeitung office on either the Monday or Tuesday you were there?

A. No, I dont know whether it was Saturday, Monday or Tuesday, or whether I met him on the Street, or whether I met him up there. Before that I had given him a list of all the trades and occupations, and he had organized some of them, and others he had not, and I was trying to see him, going up there to find him.

Q. Have you a distinct recollection that he was there Monday evening, Could you say he was there Monday evening or not, or do you know----- would your memory permit you to say that he was there Monday evening?

A. I could not say whether I met him there, in the street or anywheres, but I think I met him two or three or four days before that happened.

Q. How is it as to Schwab, was he there?

A. I think I saw Schwab and Spies and Fricke.

Q. What day?

A. I think I saw them Monday or Tuesday

Q. Neebe was not in that crowd?

A. Neebe was not there.

Q. Monday or Tuesday you saw Schwab?

A. Monday or Tuesday.

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Q. You said something this morning I believe about discussing the advisability of calling a mass meeting--- did you agree when that meeting was to be called?

A. As far as I recollect that mass meeting which we were talking about actually came to pass, and was up at the Haymarket.

Q. Did you agree there that it should be the Haymarket meeting, or are you talking now about what the result was, that it was in fact held at the Haymarket?

A. The talk was about the advisability, that was on Saturday and Monday, and before that, of having a general eight hour mass meeting for all people who would take an interest in that question, without regard------

Q. The question is then, it was not agreed upon that Monday night you were there, it was not agreed that it should be held the next night, Tuesday night, by you as a Committee.

A. We were not in Committee. It was a private talk.

Q. It was not agreed then with you that it should be Tuesday night, was it, that you remember?

A. There was not an agreement made any time. I do not know who eventually called the meeting.

Q. If you did not agree that it should be Tuesday night, it was not agreed that it should be an indignation meeting, as well as an eight hour meeting?

A. Now, these general mass meetings usually were called either by the Central Labor Union or by the Internationalists, whom I could not control very well% I could only talk to the committee

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to help them%

Q. Did you ever agree that an indignation meeting should be held at any particukar night, Tuesday night?

A. I think I saw Balthazar Rau, who was on the Committee for the Internationalists, and he was in favor of a mass meeting, but I do not know who eventually dedided that mass meeting, and which Committee called it, I could not tell.

Q. Now then, Mr. Spies nor none of the defendants ever told you that we will have a meeting on Tuesday night, an eight hour meeting at the Haymarket, or an indignation meeting?

A. I had no conversation on that point with Mr. Spies.

Q. Just simply answer the question, Mr. Spies nor none of the other defendants never said that to you?

A. I had no conversation with them in regard to an indignation mass meeting at all.

Mr. FOSTER. Not at all, then that is all.

Mr. GRINNELL. Q. What did you talk about?

A. A general mass meeting.

Q. You did talk with Spies that night when you found him in the office, after the Mc.Cormick Riot, you did talk with him about the outrages perpetrated on the Mc.Cormick people there?

A. We did. He stated the facts to me.

Q. He said that six had been killed?

A. Yes he said six or more.

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Q. Then in that connection was it not proposed that they should show their disapproval of the conduct of the Police sometime in the near future?

Mr. BLACK. Does your honor think that is competent?

THE COURT. If he means the general conduct of the police, it is right.

Mr. GRINNELL. The general conduct of the police in reference to these meetings the retofore held by Labor Movement or Internationalists, or the Central Labor Union.

THE WITNESS. In regard to those meetings, I would have asked men like Rau, Neebe and others.

Objected to what the witness would have done.

THE COURT. Q. What did you do?

A. Now, I am going to tell that.

THE COURT. Not what you would have done, but what you did. do.

A. I spoke in regard to that to Mr. Rau who was on the committee, on the agitation committee. I dont think I spoke about the indignation meeting to Spies at all, because he would have no power.

Mr. GRINNEll Q. What did Spies say that afternoon about it?

A. About calling a mass meeting?

Q. Calling any meeting, indignatiom meetingor any kind of meeting?

Objected to.

Q. Do you know Zeisler?

A. Yes I know him.

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Q. You went out with him to Lunch?

A. I went out with him to lunch.

Q. And talked with him?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You have been with Neebe?

A. Met him on the street.

Q. Walked along with him and talked with him?

A. I did not talk with him on that question at all.

Q. Did you talk on the question as to whether or not he recognized you or you recognized him at any of those meetings,

Objected to.

A. I met him on the Stret with a saloon keeper, Miller, and we talked on that question.

Q. How long did you talk with him?

A. I did not talk with him privately----- anybody else could hear.

Q. How long did you talk with him?

A. About ten minutes

Q. How long did you talk with Zeisler?

A. We walked anout five blocks, and then we left him.

Mr% FOSTER. Q% Today you talked with Mr. Ingham and Mr. Grinnell?

A. Yes sir.

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