Haymarket Affair Digital Collection

Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Testimony of William H. Freeman, 1886 July 26.

Volume K, 37-67, 31 p.
Freeman, William H.
Reporter, Chicago Inter-Ocean.

Direct examination by Mr. Grinnell. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois.

Attend Lake Front meetings on April 24, 1886 as well as the Haymarket meeting. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): socialists and/or socialism (vol.K 40), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.K 38), advocating revolution (vol.K 45), call for workingmen to arm themselves (vol.K 39), Lake Front meetings (vol.K 37), Zepf's Hall (vol.K 64), eight-hour movement (vol.K 38), position of the defendants and others on the speakers' wagon (vol.K 44), street lights and/or lights on the wagon (vol.K 48), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.K 54), movement, position or tenor of the crowd (vol.K 42), trajectory of the bomb (vol.K 65), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.K 46), Spies, August (vol.K 39), Parsons, Albert (vol.K 38), Parsons' speech at Haymarket (vol.K 43), Schwab, Michael (vol.K 47), Fielden, Samuel (vol.K 39), Fielden's speech at Haymarket (vol.K 45).

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WILLIAM H. FREEMAN, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the People, was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell, and testified as follows.

Q What is your name?

A William H. Freeman.

Q You are a newspaper reporter?

A Yes sir.

Q On the Inter Ocean?

A Yes sir.

Q How long have you been employed there?

A About six months.

Q You were reporting for the paper on 4th of May last?

A Yes sir.

Q And also on April 25th last?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you attend and report a meeting held on the lake front on the 25th day of April last?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you see the procession?

A Yes sir.

Q Where did you come in contact with the procession, and what did you see?

A At the corner of Halstead and Madison Streets, I saw a large number of men marching--I saw they were marching South on Halsted Street. They were carrying banners of various sorts, and transparancies with inscriptions painted thereon.

Q Well, what did you do?

A I stood and watched the procession. I was attending to some matters at the time, and I watched them until they passed. I think the street car that I was riding on was stopped by reason of the passage of the procession, and I alighted from the car and went to

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the corner of Halsted, and stood there until the procession had pretty nearly passed south of Madison Street. Then I went on West.

Q Later did you go to the Lake front?

A Yes, I came to the Lake front later and heard Mr. Parsons speak.

Q What did he say?

Objected to; overruled; exception.

Q Was there a large meeting there on April 25th?

A Yes, a very large number of them gathered there.

Q What did Parsons say, as near as you can remember---give me as many of his words as possible.

A I would not like to under take to repeat his own words, but he inveighed against all kinds of capital.

MR. FOSTER: Give his language as near as you can.

A I would not undertake to repeat the language of the gentleman except in one particular. I do remember that he said at one time, and one period in his address, that if the workingmen were driven to starvation, they would unfurl the banner of liberty and equality, and sweep everything before them, sweep away all their oppressors. He said it very dramatically, and turned and shook his finger at a red banner that was hanging on the platform.

Q What else did he say, if anything; what did he say in that speech about the eight hour movement?

A I have no reccollection

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of hearing anything said about the eight hour movement,

Q What if anything was said by Parsons in the speech as to force or means to be used to attain their end?

Objected to as leading; objection overruled. Exception.

Q He urged the workingmen there to take up arms, and by that means right the wrongs which they were at that time under going.

Q Did you hear Spies speak?

A Yes sir.

Q What language did he speak.

A In German if I remember correctly.

Q You don't understand that language?

A No sir.

Q Did you hear Fielden speak?

A Yes sir.

Q What did he say?

A Well, I don't think that I could undertake to give his language, because at the time I did not charge my mind with it. I had no intention of going into the details of the speeches made by any of these parties.

Q Tell me, as near as you can, what did he talk about?

A He talked in the same strain that Mr. Parsons had.

Defendant's counsel moved that the answer be striken out.

The court ordered it striken out.

THE COURT: Repeat as rearly as you can the substance--- if you cannot repeat the words, give the substance of what he did say.

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Objected to; overruled; exception.

A He simply claimed that all aggregation of property and all accumulation of property by individuals was a wrong, was against the best interests of the workingman. He claimed that the workingmen had a direct interest in everything that was produced, and that they could only be enabled to enjoy the fruits of their labor, and what belonged to them, by the use of force. There was no sort of persuasion or anything of the kind used. His language all went to---

MR. BLACK: Never mind as to your conclusions.

THE WITNESS: I was told by the judge to state what he said as near as possible---I am not saying what he did not say.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Substantially what were the words used in regard to the use of force.

THE COURT: Q. Repeat what was used. If he said anything about state what he said about it, but if it is your conclusion that he was not using any persuasion, that is another thing, but if he said anything about using persuasion tell what he did say.

A He said nothing about it. I understood his whole argument was in favor of force. There was no way to secure these things, except by force.

Objected to.

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MR. GRINNELL: Q. Is that what he said?

A Yes sir.

MR. BLACK: I don't understand that he is repeating or attempting to repeat what he said.

MR. GRINNELL: The substance.

THE WITNESS: The substance---I am giving what language means. So many words mean so many things.

Q Are you giving your conclusions in reference to the matter?

A I am only giving my impressions of so many words. If you ask me what book means, I will show it means so many printed words.

The last answer was here read to the witness.

THE WITNESS: In substance.

Q Did you hear other speakers there?

A Yes sir.

Q None of the defendants other than those you have mentioned?

A No sir, I believe not.

Q You were at the hay-market square on May 4th?

A Yes sir.

Q What time did you arrive there?

A I think about nine o'clock.

Q You may state what you saw and heard from the time you came there until the matter was over, through with, give it

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historically and consecutively.

A I left the Inter Ocean office about seven o'clock.

THE COURT: Q. What happened after you got to the hay-market, no matter how you got there, but when you did get there, what happened?

Objected to in behalf of all the defendants not there; objection overruled; exception by defendants.

A I did not go to the hay-market, as I understand it, at all, on that evening. I did not get into the hay market at any time. I went to the corner of Randolph and Desplaines Street.

Q What did you see?

A There I saw a large number of men gathered in the middle of the block on Desplaines between Lake and Randolph, and some one was speaking from a wagon-- a number of men were standing on that wagon. I walked up into the crowd and saw that it was Mr. Parsons speaking. I listened to what he had to say for some little time, and then I walked into the crowd as far as possible, as I heard some one say Mayor Harrison was in the crowd, and went around on the outskirts looking to see if I could see him before I went into the crowd at all, and then I worked my way into the crowd and up to the wagon on which the speakers were standing. During that time Mr. Parsons had ceased speaking, and Mr. Spies, I believe it was, introduced Mr. Fielden to the

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Q Give me what Parsons said first before you get to Fielden?

MR. BLACK: Give his words as near as you can remember.

THE COURT: Tell as nearly as you can recollect what he said,

A Well, he said, I remember particularly, alluding to Jay Gould that he was a robber, and spoke about his vast accumulations, and asked what they would do. Somebody in the crowd shouted out that they would hang him. Throw him in the lake-- something to that effect. Parsons said, "No, not yet". If they did that the result would be that another Jay Gould would pop up in his place like a jack in the box, and there would be no remedy by that means; that they must overturn the whole system by which Jay Gould was enabled to secure the vast amounts of money and power that he had secured, and the way to overturn that, or the way to overthrow that system, was by means of force, and he said, "To arms to arms", a number of times during his remarks. The whole tenor of his speech was in that vein.

MR. FOSTER: Never mind the tenor of it.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. What was the characteristic of the crowd, were they responsive, how did they act, how did the crowd itself act when the speaking was going on?

Objected to; objection overruled.

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A They applauded from time to time the utterances of the speakers, and there were occasional assertions made. The ones I remember chiefly were in relation to Gould, their threats of hanging him and throwing him into the lake, and the reply of Mr. Parsons.

Q How large a crowd was that then?

A I think there was perhaps a thousand people there at that time.

Q How many were on the wagon?

A Some six or eight.

Q Was anything said by Parsons in his speech about militia or police or the weakness of the authorities?

A I don't recall now that he said anything about that.

Q Who was the next speaker after Parsons?

A Mr. Fielden.

Q State what Fielden said?

A Well, Fielden devoted a great deal of his time---

MR. FOSTER: Q. Tell us what he said, and then we can judge how much time he devoted.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Go on and give it as near as you can.

A Fielden devoted a great deal of his time to discussing the Legislation.

Objected to; objection overruled; exception.

THE WITNESS: (Continuing). He discussed the legislation and congress. He spoke, particularly of the action of Martin Foran. He declared that Martin Foran had stated that no legislation could be enacted that would benefit the working man, and from that went on to argue that it was

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clear that it was impossible for the workingman to obtain any sort of redress through legislation. He told them they ought not to be fools enough to send such men as Martin Foran to Congress and legislate for them when they admitted that there was no possibility of doing anything that would redound to the benefit of the working man. He also spoke I think of the revolution which established the government, and compared the revolution proposed by the workingmen, as he styled them, to that revolution. He asserted that it was equally as proper as the original revolution. Then he spoke, I remember particularly, just before the arrival of the police with reference to the law.

MR. FOSTER: Just one moment: The Inter Ocean is published in the morning, is it.

A Yes sir.

Q And your report was the next morning which would be the fifth?

A Yes sir.

Q Now go right ahead?

A He spoke of the law, and of all the acts of capital, as he styled it, I believe, and the oppressive acts of capital which injured the workingmen, as being the results of law, and urged the workingmen and his hearers to overthrow the law, to subvert it, to kill it, to stab it, and to throttle it, as I remember it. Those are about the last words that I remember to have heard him speak before the arrival of the police. They came up very quietly

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and standing where I was between the two wagons, I had no knowledge that they were on the ground until the command to disperse was given. I heard that, and at once stepped on to the sidewalk and started to go towards the police. I had been standing I guess up at the upper end or the North end of the wagon, which stood there, and before I reached the other end of the wagon this bomb was exploded, and I could not at first realize what had occurred. The explosion made a great noise, but I saw no fire and no light. Immediately after the explosion the firing began, and I simply crouched behind the wagon for a moment or two, until I could determine what course to pursue, and then I went South towards the alley, and as soon as I thought it safe to go in, I saw there was no firing from there, I went into the alley. I remained in the alley South of the Crane Building until the firing had nearly ceased. Then I came out, and after looking over the ground a moment went to the Desplaines Street Station.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Did you hear Fielden make any response to the declaration of the officer to disperse?

A I did not, no sir.

Q Did you see him afterwards?

A No sir.

Q Which wagon were you crouched behind, the one the speakers were standing on, or the one just North of it?

A The one the speakers were standing on.

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Q Did you see any people around you when you were behind it?

A I think I was almost alone in the space behind it.

Q Then you run in the alley?

A Yes.

Q Do you know where the firing began first?

A No sir, I don't. The firing was similtaneous almost, after the explosion of the bomb.

Q Is the noise of the explosien of the bomb the first thing that you saw?

A The first thing I heard. I saw nothing to indicate an explosion.

Q After the firing ceased you went down to Desplaines Street Station?

A Yes sir. I went first into the middle of the street and saw two officers laying there badly wounded, and I spoke to them and neither one replied to me; and then I went to the corner and two patrol wagons were there and I directed one of the Sergeants on the wagon to go to the two officers, and told them they were badly wounded; and he drove there; and then I went directly to the station.

Q Whom did you see upon the wagon whom you recognized besides Parsons, Fielden and Spies?

A I think I saw Schwab there.

Q Whom else---did you see any of the other defendants, any of these defendants there that you recognized?

A I did not recognize any of them, but those three. I am not a together positive about Schwab, but I think I saw him there.

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Q Prior to your seeing these people speaking on the wagon, had you seen any of the defendants that night, prior to your going to the wagon where Parsons was speaking, had you seen any of the defendants before?

A That same night?

Q Yes sir.

A No sir, that was the first I saw of them.

Q Where did you first land in that vicinity---you went to the hay-market, and it was advertised as the hay-market meeting---did you go out there?

A No sir, I did not go there at all.

Q You came out by way of Randolph, and having seen the meeting, you went on?

A Yes sir.

Q How many people were there when you first got there?

A I think there was about a thousand, as narly as I could estimate---it was very dark in the street there and difficult to see without ing right into the people.

Q Do you remember whether there was any light on the wagon where the speakers were?

A There was none that I saw.

Q Do you remember that the lamp was lighted at the corner of the alley?

A I think it was.

Q Do you know whether the lamp was at any time extinguished afterwards?

A I don't think it was.

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By Mr. Foster.

Q At the time you were down to the Lake front, and heard these speakers, do you remember how many stands the speakers were speaking from?

A Yes sir.

Q How many?

A Two.

Q As a matter of fact didn't Mr. Parsons and Mr. Fielden speak from different stands?

A Yes sir.

Q Were you in a position where you could listen to what they both said at the same time?

A No sir, they did not both speak at the same time.

Q But they spoke from different stands?

A They spoke from different stands.

Q How many speakers were there on that occasion there?

A I don't know. There were five or six that I remember to have heard.

Q Did you listen to Mr. Parsons from the time that he began until he closed, and then to Mr. Fielden from the time that he began until he closed?

A No sir, Mr. Parsons was speaking when I reached the ground.

Q You, I suppose had been in the habit of attending the Lake front meetings before that to some extent?

A I don't think that I ever attended a socialistic meeting on the Lake front before. I attended them at various other points.

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Q How long have you been a reporter on the Inter Ocean?

A About six months.

Q Six months now?

A Yes sir.

Q You have just entered into the business then for the Inter Ocean?

A For the Inter Ocean, yes sir.

Q How long have you been a reporter?

A About five years.

Q How long were you down on the Lake front?

A I suppose I was there two hours, perhaps not so long--I am not clear about that.

Q You did not go to the hay-market meeting until about nine o'clock?

A About nine o'clock when I reached the ground.

Q You did not hear Spies speak?

A No sir.

Q Parsons was then speaking when you arrived?

A Yes sir.

Q When this reference was made to Gould, about throwing him into the Lake, some fellow yelled, "Throw him into the lake"?

A I think he said "Throw him into the lake, or hang him".

Q Some such remark as some men usually get off?

A Yes.

Q And he said, "No, not yet"?

A Yes sir.

Q And then went on to argue that the time had not come for any personal violence, but the whole system had got to be undermined, or else another Jay Gould would take his place?

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A Yes sir, pop up like a jack in a box.

Q That is about all you remember about his speech?

A Yes sir, I remember the tenor of his speech.

Q I don't care about the tenor or the base of it. You cannot give the language of it except what you have given here in regard to that particular point?

A No sir.

Q He introduced then Mr. Fielden?

A I think Mr. Spies made the speech introducing Mr. Fielden.

Q Mr. Spies introduced Mr. Fielden?

A Yes sir.

Q Then he discussed this congressional question?

A Yes sir.

Q As to what Congress had the right to do, and what this particular representative said he could not do?

A Yes sir.

Q And he was speaking as to the means of assisting the laboring man?

A Yes sir.

Q Had the meeting decreased in numbers any up to that time?

A I think not.

Q Do you remember there was a cloud came up there, and it was threatening, and indications of rain, and the crowd began to disperse?

A I remember something of that kind, yes sir.

Q Was not that before the close of his address that the crowd began to disperse?

A. Before the close of Fielden's speech?

Q Yes sir.

A Yes sir, but not before the remarks you

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have been talking about.

Q I mean before the close of his address there was much less than a thousand persons there, was there not, if there had been a thousand at the beginning?

A I don't think there was more than two hundred or three hundred left at the time the cloud came up.

Q When was it these responses were made from the audience, was it occasionally along through the meeting, or more particularly while Mr. Parsons was speaking?

A No sir, it was throughout the entire meeting.

Q That is there would be clapping of hands, or any number might applaud a sentence?

A Yes.

Q But there was nothing unusual in the demonstration that you observed?

A Nothing remarkable, no sir.

Q That is, you would not regard it as being a riotous meeting, no fights there?

A No sir.

Q No loud talking by any of the audience there?

A The talk was all suppressed.

Q It was what you would call an ordinarily quiet meeting, so far as you observed?

A So far as the demeanor of the crowd was concerned it was quiet enough.

Q As you came up there between the two wagons, and forced your way into the crowd, hunting for Mayor Harrison, you took a position between the wagon on which the speeches were being made and one which stood further North, as I understood it?

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A Yes sir.

Q Along the curb-stone?

A Yes sir.

Q What was the distance between those two wagons about?

A Six or eight feet.

Q You stood between them?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember particularly where a telegraph pole stood at that point, a large telegraph pole?

A No sir, I do not.

Q You were there some little time after the trouble was over you tell me?

A Yes sir.

Q Were you there the next day?

A I don't think I was.

Q Did you make any examination from that telegraph pole there as to which way bullets came from that were in that pole?

A No sir.

Q Have you made any examination to find whether or not that pole has been cut down and removed since that time?

A No sir.

Q You don't know anything about that?

A I remember a telegraph pole I think, at the Northwest corner of Randolph and Lake.

Q I mean right there about where the wagon stood--you don't remember any pole or post there?

A I don't remember any by the wagon, no sir.

Q You say that the first you heard was, the bomb exploded?

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A Yes sir.

Q If those wagons were within six or eight feet of each other, you must have been from where Fielden was speaking within eight or ten feet, were you not?

A Yes sir, easily.

Q You heard no exclamation after this proclamation was made from Mr. Fielden at all, did you?

A No sir, my attention was then concentrated on the officers, and I thought nothing further about the meeting.

Q You saw Captain Ward, when he stepped up and commenced to speak there, asking the mob to disperse?

A No sir, I did not see Captain Ward to recognize him, until I saw him at Desplaines Street Station.

Q You heard what he said---"In the name of the People of the State of Illinois, I command you to quietly and peaceably disperse"?

A No sir, I could not hear that. I could catch enough of the words to know he did say that, but I did not hear all those words.

Q You did not hear Mr. Fielden in a loud voice say, "We are peacable", or any such thing as that?

A No sir.

Q And you were within eight or ten feet of him?

A Yes sir.

Q Mr. Fielden was facing to the Westward, was not he as he spoke?

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A Yes, to the westward, and from time to time to the Southwest.

Q To the Southwest in the direction of the Desplaines Street Station?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, did you hear him make any other remark than you have stated contained in the speach you have testified to?

A I heard him make no remarks that were not part of his address, part of the speech.

Q You did not hear him say then, "There come the blood hounds now", or anything of that kind?

A No sir.

Q You did not hear him say in that connection, "Here come the blood hounds; now you do your duty and I will do mine"?

A No sir, I did not.

Q Now, do you believe if he had said that in a loud voice so the audience could have heard it, that

you would have heard it standing where you did?

Objected to; objection sustained.

Q Was there anything to attract your attention to prevent your hearing that remark that you know of if it had been made?

A Well, I suppose that unless the remark had been made in a very loud tone of voice, I should not have heard it, because I thought nothing about the speaking when the police came.

MR. BLACK: Q. Before the police came?

A No sir, before the police came I don't think I heard any such remark%.

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Q There was nothing you know of to prevent your hearing that remark, if Mr. Fielden had said it in a loud tone of voice before you were aware of the presence of the police?

A No sir.

Q Your business was to listen and hear?

A Yes.

Q Were you within hearing distance and listening?

A Yes sir.

Q You had ceased to look for May or Harrison in the meantime?

A Yes sir.

Q And you were paying attention to what was said?

A Yes.

Q Did you hear him make any remark after you heard the proclamation for the crowd to disperse?

A No sir.

Q Did you see him withdraw from the wagon?

A My mind is not clear on that at all. I don't remember anything that occurred after I started to go to the officers. The thing happened so quickly that nothing was clear to me beyond the movements I made myself.

Q You say that as soon as you heard the proclamation you started south towards the police?

A Yes sir.

Q You were disposed to go towards the police not run away from them?

A Yes sir.

Q Were you on the sidewalk when you started to go towards the police, or were you on the street?

A On the sidewalk.

Q Near the curb-stone?

A I think about midway of the walk It is a Widewalk.

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Q Do you think you got along side of the wagon before the pistol shooting began?

A Did I get alongside of it--how do you mean.

Q Alongside of the wagon--the speaker's wagon?

A I was on the sidewalk between the wagon and the buildings all teh time until I got to the alley.

Q Now then, I understand you crouched down behind the wagon?

A Yes sir.

Q What part of the wagon did you crouch behind?

A I didnt go to the wagon at all, simply below it, so that if possible, I could avoid any bullets. I did not go close to the wagon.

Q How far from the wagon?

A Three or four feet from it.

Q Was your face towards the wagon?

A No sir, facing South.

Q South, towards the police?

A Yes sir.

MR. GRINNELL: He did not say facing South towards the police.

MR. FOSTER: Q. Were you facing towards the police?

A Facing South.

Q Is that in the direction where the police were drawn up?

A Faced out to my right in the street.

Q Your face was South, and the police were at an angle to your right.

A Yes sir, at an angle to my right in the street.

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Q And you got down there?

A Yes sir.

Q How long were you down there?

A A very short time, I don't know---just about four or five seconds, I didn't stay any longer than I could.

Q At the time you were crouching down there, while this firing was going on, down opposite to the wagon on the sidewalk, and near it, did you see any shots fired between you and the wagon?

A There was a dense smoke there I did not see any shots fired at all.

Q There was a dense smoke all around there?

A Yes sir.

Q How near were you to the platoon of police that were firing?

A I think I was perhaps ten feet in front of them, and about to their right from six to eight feet.

Q There was smoke all around?

A Yes sir.

Q And you saw no distinct individual firing

A I saw no firing. I saw two officers at one time with their revolvers pointed dangerously close at me, but as to seeing actual shooting by any individual, I did not see any. I saw flashed.

Q You don't know whether any officer drew a bead and fired at you?

A I don't think they did, I know two of them did draw a bead on me at one time, but neither of them fired.

Q You saw two of them draw a bead on you?

A Yes sir, I did.

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Q Neither of them fired?

A Neither fired. Both were against the wagon, and their revolvers pointed across it.

Q Both against the wagon on the other side, that is on the street side?

A On the street side, yes.

Q At that time you left, and came along at the end of the alley?

A Yes sir, the alley.

Q Did you have any talk with the policeman--did you tell them not to shoot?

A No sir, I didn't tell them anything.

Q You lit out?

A I lit out.

Q And went down the alley?

A Yes sir.

Q You say the reason you worked towards the alley was because from the alley there was no shooting?

A Yes sir, I saw there was no shooting there, and saw an officer or two go in there.

Q You were cool enough to know the place of safety for you to go was in the direction from which no bullets were coming?

A Certainly.

Q You saw nobody fire about the mouth of the alley, or down the alley?

A No sir.

Q And went in that direction?

A Yes.

Q As a matter of fact, a considerable portion of the crowd were right in there where you were? Was there any body between you and the wagon, do you believe?

A I don't think there was any body between me and the wagon. At the time I

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come there, there was a few people south of the alley, where the boxes stood.

Q That was further south?

A Yes sir, south of the alley.

Q How far was it from where you were to where the boxes stood south of this Crane's alley?

A I have never measured the distance, but I suppose it was 25 or 30 feet..

Q Now then, at that time did you see any body between you and the wagon, either before or at the time you went up there, or after the explosion of the bomb?

A I don't remember to have seen any one on the sidewalk between the alley and the wagon where I stood.

Q Was that after the explosion of the bomb, and while you were nearer to the wagon that where you were, and between you and the wagon?

A No sir.

Q Your attention had been directed of course, to Fielden up to the time you heard the command to disperse?

A Yes.

Q Which we learn was made by Captain Ward?

A Yes.

Q Did you see any shots fired from the wagon?

A No sir.

Q You didn't see Mr. Fielden shoot as he got off the wagon, jumped off the wagon?

A No sir.

Q Where would Mr. Fielden's position be from where you squatted down by the side of the wagon, that is, on the

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street opposite the wagon, and where the platoon of police we drawn up, Lieut Steele's Co the first ones in front?

A Fielden would have been about I Judge from eighteen to twenty feet in front of them, and to their right a little bit, that is he would not strike the center of the platoon at all

Q would the hind end or the wheel of the wagon, the south wheel of the wagon, would that be from where you squatted down in a line between the policemen drawn up in the street and where you were?

A No sir,

Q Where would it be?

A It would be in front of the policemen

Q The wagon would be directly in front, and you would be a little to the side, a little further north?

A% yes sir%

Q% When did you settle down in this position, was it when the bomb first exploded?

A% No sir, not until after the firing began%

Q% What particular firing did you observe began---- was it firing that you heard, or firing that you saw?

A% Firing that I heard%

Q% From where you were there could you tell the location of the firing?

A% No sir%

Q% You would not know whether it was on one side or the other side?

A% No sir%

Q% I will ask you whether or not as you stood there and

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heard the bomb explode, whether or not you saw a number of the crowd firing revolvers?

A% No sir, I did not see any% I saw a number of flashes afterwards%

Q% After the police had fired?

A% After the bomb had exploded% then the firing began% Who was firing I don't know, except I presume the Officers were?

Q% You knew the police fired?

A% I saw the flashes, but in the smoke I did not see anybody holding a revolver and discharging it% I saw no connection between any individual and any explosion%

Q% Those were the first flashes you saw after the flashes of the bomb?

A% Yes sir, I saw them near the police, where the police were at the time%

Q? Now, as a matter of fact, do you remember whether Mr% Parsons stayed on that wagon until the Bomb exploded?

A% Yes sir, I do%

Q% You say that he did stay there?

A% No, I do not. I say I remeber%

Q% Now, as a matter of fact, I will ask if your memory is that before the bomb exploded, after some little time, after he concluded his speech, of his getting off the wagon, and going away?

A% Yes, I remember he did%

Q% How long after he finished speaking was it that he got off and retired?

A% I do not know just how long%

Q% He went towards Lake Street, didn't he, North?

A. Yes sir.

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Q. You observed him to that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. This was not very long I suppose after he had finished speaking?

A% I do not think it was a great while.

Q. As soon as he had finised and sat down, Mr. Fielden was introduced and began, and very soon after that Parsons withdrew from the wagon, and went north?

A% Yes%

THE COURT% Q. By what part of the wagon were you crouched down?

A. I was on the side, on the walk, about midway. I did not endeavor to shield myself behind the wagon, and make a place of refuge at all, because I knew it would not do.

Q. You were on the sidewalk about midway of the wagon, and on the east side of the wagon?

A% On the east side of the wagon. Yes.

Mr.% FOSTER. Q% How near the curbstone do you say?

A. Three feet, something like that.

Q. And the wagon wheels were right up against the curbstone, two of them?

A. Pretty near the curb-stone, maybe a foot away.

Q. Do you remember that you noticed particularly?

A. I paid no particular notice to the wagon% It seemed to have stood there just about as it was backed up and the horses unhitched, as I seen wagons stand there a good many times%

Q. Do you mean to say that the wagon was backed up against the Walk?

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A. Not with the rear of the wagon against the walk, but I have seen wagons standing in the same position a good many times at the Foundry.

Q. It looked as though somebody had driven the wagon up against the curb-stone, and left the wagon there just as they unhitchd it, and it was the same as when they went away at night?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You were within three feet of the curb-stone you should think, just a single step next to the wagon, and could step down?

A% Yes sir.

Q. You say you were there probably five or six seconds after the general fusilade began?

A. After the bomb exploded, I think, yes.

Q. You were crouching five or six seconds perhaps?

A% Perhaps that long, yes.

Q% I understand you to say you think Schwab was there-----are you sure?

A. I would not say I was sure about it.

Q. You would not say that Schwab was at that meeting at all after Parsons began to speak?

A. No sir.

Q. Yet you remember that during Mr. Fielden's speech, and when that threatening cloud came up, of Mr. Parsons suggesting the storm, and saying that we had better adjourn, or hadn't we better adjourn to Zepf's Hall?

A% Yes sir.

Q. When was it you heard Mr% Parsons say that?

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A. It was while Fielden was speaking, and some few moments before the police came up.

Q. How many minutes would you think before the police came that Mr. parsons proposed an adjournment to Zepf's Hall?

A. I think perhaps five or ten minutes, maybe.

Q. In reply to that did not Mr. Fielden say "I am just about through, and then we will go home."

A. He said something to that effect.

Q. Then in a few minutes after that you heard this proclamation from which you learned that the police were there?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you see the bomb in the air?

A. No sir.

Q. Do you know about the location of it when it exploded?

A. No sir. Except from mere guess work% I saw from the ground afterwards.

Q. It seemed to be quite a good deal south of where you were and west?

A. Yes

Q. How far do you think, from where you were standing by the wagon, from investigations whether made then or afterwards?

A, I judge at least-----

Mr% GRINNELL. Tell what you saw.

THE COURT. He said he did not see anything.

Mr% FOSTER. Q. Could you from an examination of the ground afterwards? tell where it exploded

Objected to.

THE COURT. If he examined the street afterwards he

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may describe the appearance which the street presented from the examination.

Mr% Foster. Q. I believe you said something about that you did not regard the wagon was very substantial breast works for you?

A. No sir, I did not.

Q. The firing was coming from that direction---- at least the police were shooting, you could see them?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You could see a couple of them cover you with revolvers?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You did not regard the wagon as being any protection at all?

A. No sir.

Q. As a matter of fact it was merely a truck, and the only protection would be the bottom boards and the wheels?

A. That is about all.

Q. There was no box to it, no body?

A. No sir.

Q. From what you saw there of the flashes, and all that you saw, can you tell about where the bomb struck in the street and exploded?

Objected to on the ground that he did not see any flash.

Q. Did'nt you see the flash of the bomb?

A. No sir.

Q. So then you do not know where it did strike the street?

A. I do not know anything about that.

A JUROR. I wish him to state how long Mr. Fielden spoke.

THE COURT. Give him your impression as to the length

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of time, the Juror wants to know, Fielden was speaking.

A. I think he spoke perhaps twenty minutes.

Mr% FOSTER. Q. After Mr. Parsons said he was in favor of adjourning to Zepf's Hall, and Mr. Fielden had responded that he was about through, he would conclude in a moment, how long did he continue speaking before the police came?

A. I said about five or ten minutes I think.

Q. now, do you remember of Mr. Fielden saying just before you heard this proclamation, these words "Now in conclusion I will say" or did he use the words "in conclusion" that you heard?

A. I don't recall those words at all.

Q. Before you went into the crowd, were you at the station that evening?

A. No sir, not until after the trouble.

Q, Did you have any conversation with any of the policemen, any of the police force, or any of the detective force, or any of the officers of the city, in regard to the meeting?

A. No sir%

Mr% GRINNELL At what time?

Mr% FOSTER. Q. At any time before the meeting, before you went to the meeting you say you had no such conversation?

A. I had no such conversation with no one, no sir%

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