Haymarket Affair Digital Collection

Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1
Testimony of Lizzie Mae Holmes, 1886 Aug. 6.

Volume M, 280-307, 28 p.
Holmes, Lizzie Mae .
Former assistant editor of the Alarm.

Direct and re-direct examination by Mr. Foster. Cross and re-Cross-examination by Mr. Ingham. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al.

Attended the meeting at the Arbeiter-Zeitung office on May 4 with Mrs. Parsons and then went with her to the Haymarket. Was with Albert and Lucy Parsons at Zepf's Hall when the bomb exploded. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): socialists and/or socialism (vol.M 281), anarchists and/or anarchism (vol.M 301), the Alarm (vol.M 281), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.M 301), meaning of "Ruhe" (vol.M 291), Greif's Hall (vol.M 294), Zepf's Hall (vol.M 286), 1886 May 4 meeting of the American Group at the Arbeiter-Zeitung office (vol.M 282), arrangements made for the Haymarket meeting (vol.M 284), witnesses who were indicted and/or arrested for conspiracy (vol.M 292), International Workingmen's Association (vol.M 293), the American Group (vol.M 282), (vol.M 294), Parsons, Albert (vol.M 282), Parsons, Lucy (vol.M 282), Schwab, Michael (vol.M 283), Fielden, Samuel (vol.M 284), Fischer, Adolph (vol.M 289), attendance of women and children at labor meetings and rallies (vol.M 282).

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a witness called and sowrn on behalf of the defendants was examined in chief by Mr. Foster and testified as follows:

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Q You may state your full name?

A Lizzie May Holmes.

Q Where do you at present live?

A Geneva, Ill.

Q How long have you lived in Geneva?

A Since last December.

Q Where did you live before you moved to Geneva?

A In Chicago.

Q For How long prior to your removal to Geneva, did you live in Chicago, how many years have you lived here?

A Seven years or eight.

Q Are you acquainted with defendants or any of them?

A Some of them.

Q What class of them are you acquainted with?

A Mr. Spies, Mr. Neebe, Mr. Parsons, Mr. Fielden, and slightly with Mr. Fischer, and slightly with Mr. Engel.

Q You are a correspondent I believe or assistant editor of the Alarm at one time, Mr. Parson's paper?

A Yes sir.

Q For what length of time?

A I think about a year or a little more than a year.

Q What was your position on that peper?

A Assistant editor and contributor.

Q You are a socialist I presume or at least friendly to the principles of socialism?

A Yes.

Q I will ask you if you remember a meeting that was held at the office of the Arbeiter Zeitung or rather at the Arbeiter

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Zeitung building in the evening of the 4th of May last?

A Yes sir.

Q Where was that meeting held?

A In the Alarm office, the second floor.

Q For what purpose was the meeting called?

A It was called by the American Group to consider the organization of the sewing girls, the working girls in the city.

Q Were there circulars printed, circulars calling that meeting?

A Not calling that meeting--simply an advertisement calling the meeting together? It was to consider---

Q Where was that advertisement published, if you remember?

A I think it was published in the Daily News.

Q What time in the evening did you go to that meeting?

A I think it was nearly or about half past eight, when we arrived there.

Q Did any one call for you to the meeting?

A Yes sir.

Q Who?

A Mr. and Mrs. Parsons and their two children.

Q And the children?

A Yes.

Q Do you remember where you took the car to attend that meeting?

A On the corner of Halsted and Randolph street.

Q Did you go directly from the corner of Halsted and Randolph to 105 Fifth Avenue?

A Yes. 107-

Q 107, 5th Ave?

A Yes.

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Q Who was there when you arrived at that meeting?

A From fifteen to twenty people--I didn't know them all.

Q I will ask you with reference to Mr. Schwab. Was he at that meeting at any time that evening?

A He might have been--he was not there when I was there.

Q I mean was he there after your arrival?

A No sir.

Q I will ask you if you were at the meeting during the time that there was any communication by telephone between the office and Deering or Lake View?

A No sir, I was not.

Q You heard no telephoning after you got there?

A No sir.

Q You heard nothing of the telephone?

A No sir.

Q Was there any business transactions except with reference to the organization of the sewing girls that meeting?

A No sir, I think not.

Q How long did the meeting last after your arrival?

A Well, about half an hour I should think, as near as I can judge, perhaps less.

Q You say that during the meeting during that half hour, and after your arrival there was no matter under consideration before the meeting except the organization of the sewing women?

A Not to my recollection, no sir.

Q You say you don't remember all that were present and didn't know all that were present--will you give me the names of those you did know and that you remember were present?

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A Mr. Fielden was there, Mr. Snyder was there, Mrs. Parsons Mr. Parsons, Mr. Patterson--I don't know that I can name any others.

Q Altogether how many?

A Probably about fifteen or so.

Q Mrs. Holmes you may state to the jury what you did, where you went after the adjournment of the meeting at 107 5th Ave.?

A I walked over to the haymarket meeting at the adjournment of the meeting.

Q Who walked with you?

A Mrs. Parsons.

Q Before you had gone to the haymarket meeting had there been any communication from the haymarket meeting calling for speakers at 107 5th Ave.

A Yes sir.

Q How long before the meeting adjourned there?

A Just a few moments.

Q In response to the call for speakers at the haymarket meeting, who if any one left the meeting at 107 5th Ave.?

A Mr. Fielden and Mr. Parsons and others, I think that all went out nearly together or went with one another.

Q Did you accompany these gentlemen there?

A No, I went after they went.

Q So they went before the final adjournment of the meeting is that your recollection?

A Yes, it was adjourned just about that time.

Q Now, when you arrived at the meeting at the haymarket

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who was speaking?

A Mr. Parsons had just commenced.

Q Where did you take position at the meeting?

A I after a little got into a wagon just north of the speaker's wagon.

Q How far North of the speakers wagon was it, the wagon in which you sat?

A I am a poor judge of distance, but it was not very far.

Q Estimated by objects from your chair about what point would be the probable distance?

A Well, about as far as that window (Indicating).

Q As far as from where you sit to that window?

A I should think so.

Q This wagon in which you stood was on the east side of DesPlaines Street, was it, and North of the Speakers' wagon?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you stay in that wagon?

A Part of the time.

Q Who was with you in that wagon that had been at the other meeting?

A Mrs. Parsons.

Q How long did you stay there, Mrs. Holmes?

A I don't know whether I can tell the length of time.

Q According to your best judgment.

Q According to your judgment, your best judgment.

A Perhaps an hour. It was while Parsons and Fielden were speaking, not until Fielden was done, though.

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Q You were there were you, when Parsons had concluded his speech and when Fielden was speaking for some time?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember of a cloud coming up and of a cold, chilly wind blowing?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, with reference to the overshadowing of that cloud and the wind, what did you do?

A We got down out of the wagon supposing it was going to rain.

Q What did you do when you got out of the wagon?

A We went over to Zepf&s saloon, it was said they were going to adjourn the meeting over there, so we went.

Q Who went overrthere with you, if any one?

A Mrs. Parsons went with me.

Q Now, besides you and Mr. Parsons and Mrs. Parsons, who else, if any one, accompanied you?

A Mr. Parsons was with us

Q Who else, if any one?

A I think Brown was with us, or behind us.

Q You remember of Brown accompanying you there also?

A Yes sir.

Q When you got to Zepf's hall where did you go?

A We sat down to a table that was near, a table near the window.

Q Where is the location of that window, which side of the room is it?

A On the West side.

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Q How near to the door?

A It was the first wondow towards the door.

Q The first wondow next to the door on the west side?

A Yes sir.

Q You and Parsons sat down, you say, at that window?

A Yes sir.

Q What is your recollection now as to how you sat, as to whether you sat on chairs or in the window?

A Well, I sat in a chair and I think Mrs. Parsons sat in a chair at the end of the table and close to the window.

Q Was it in front of the window like?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you know what the height of the window sill is there?

A Just a little higher than a chair would be.

Q So you and Mrs. Parsons sat, we might say, in front of the window with your backs towards the window?

A Yes sir.

Q What did you see Mr. Parsons doing at any time that you were there?

A Mr. Parsons was walking around part of the time, stood at the bar part of the time.

Q Do you remember of seeing him take a glass of beer there with any one at the bar?

A I think he did.

Q With whom?

A I can't say for certain, but I think it was with Mr. Brown.

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Q Now, I will ask you Mrs. Holmes, at the time that Mr. Parsons was walking there back and forth whether there was any gentlemen sitting on the window sill or sitting near to where you and Mrs. Parsons sat?

A Yes sir, there was a gentleman sitting there.

Q Who was the gentleman?

A Well, I don't know him very well.

Q You have heard his name, haven't you?

A Yes sir.

Q What is his name?

MR. INGHAM: If she knows.

MR. FOSTER: Q. Yes, if you know.

A Well, it was something like Keling or Keeler, something of that kind.

Q A man that you had seen attending your meetings previously?

A Yes sir, I had seen him.

Q What was the size of that gentleman and what was his appearance as compared with Parsons?

A He was just about Mr. Parson's size.

Q And he sat there and was talking with you and Mrs. Parsons for a time by the window?

A Yes sir.

Q Were you there by that wondow at the time that the bomb exploded?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you hear the noise of the explosion of the bomb?

A Yes sir.

Q And the postol shots afterwards?

A Yes sir.

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Q Now at that time where was Mr. Parsons?

A Just when the bomb exploded I could not say just where he was, but I saw him a moment before and a moment afterwards he came up.

Q I will ask you if Mr. Parsons ever left Zeph's hall or the saloon there, the main bar room from the time that you and Mrs. Parsons and he entered the room until after the explosion of the bomb?

A No sir, he did not.

Q He was about and around there in conversation all of the time?

A A Yes sir.

Q From where you stood was your face towards the bar or your back towards the bar?

A My side was towards the bar.

Q I will ask you whether you saw when you went in there any of the other defendants aside from Mr. Parsons at Zeph's Hall?

A I saw Mr. Fischer.

Q Where did Mr. Fischer sit?

A He sat at a table beyond, further in.

Q Further, which way from where you were?

A Which way is it--North, I believe.

Q North of where you were?

A Yes sir.

Q With reference to the West Wall where did Fischer sit, near the wall or against the wall or any way from the wall?

A I think it was near the wall, not against it, I think. I don't remember his precise position, I just gave it a galnce

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Q Did you see Fischer sitting there at the time or soon after you entered the hall?

A Yes sir, soon after.

Q Whom was he sitting with, if any one?

A I don't know, I could not tell.

Q Was there any gentleman sitting by him?

A Yes sir.

Q How many gentlemen were sitting at the table that he was?

A I can't say precisely, two or three, there was men all around, I can't say whether they were right there at the table or not.

Q Do you remember whether they were drinking beer there, whether there were beer glasses on the table?

A It is my impression that there were.

Q Now, Mrs. Holmes, I will ask you whether at any time up to the time of the explosion of the bomb Mr. Fischer left the room and went away?

A No sir, I don't think he did, he didn't pass me, at least.

Q He didn't pass you?

A No sir.

Q And you saw him sitting there from time to time as you were at the wondow?

A Yes sir.

Q Was your attention attracted towards Mr. Fischer more than anybody else?

A No sir, I was not particularly attracted, I merely glanced at him and knew that he was there, and knew when he came in.

Q You knew Fischer well enough before that to know that it

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was Fischer when you saw him?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember whether he was sitting with his face side or back towards you?

A I saw his face right--his front view pretty near.

Q I will ask you when you first heard of the word Ruhe or any significance of that word?

A When I read it in the papers.

Q When?

A Well, a week or so ago I read of the examination here.

Q When you read of the examination?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, at the office of the Alarm, on the night of the fourth of May, at 107 Fifth Avenue, was there anything said about the word Ruhe?

A No sir.

Q Was there anything said about any force, or probable danger of trouble which might occur at the Haymarket, in your hearing?

A No sir.

Q You heard of nothing of that kind?

A No sir.

Q And knew of nothing of that kind?

A And knew of nothing of that kind.

Q Expected nothing of that kind?

A No sir.

Q Did Mr. Parsons come to the wagon where you and Mrs. Parsons were more than once before you went to Zeph's?

A No, I think not. He came and sat there with us after he got through speaking.

Q Now, do you remember of his leaving at any time and going

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to the other wagon for a moment?

A I don't remember, but I believe that he did.

Q You believe he did?

A Yes sir.

Q Was that about the time that the cloud came up and about the time that you went to Zeph's Hall?

A It was a little before that, I can't remember just when it was.

Q Were you arrested, Mrs. Holmes?

A Yes sir.

Q Where?

A In the office of the Alarm.

Q When?

A On the 5th of May.

Q Were you locked up?

A Yes sir.

Q Where?

A I was taken first to the Harrison Street Police Station and then in the County jail.

Q What was the charge that was preferred against you?

Objected to.

Q Well, was there any charge preferred against you?

A Yes sir.

Q Well, I want to know what it was.

Objected to.

THE COURT: How is it material on this trial.

MR. FOSTER: Q. Are you now under bail?

Objected to.

THE COURT: Does that cut any figure?

MR. FOSTER: I want to know a little about it.

I will ask you this question: How long were you confirmed at the station and in the jail?

A From Wednesday noon until

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Saturday forenoon.

Q Then where were you taken?

A Saturday forenoon I was released.

Mr. Ingham.

Q Your name is now Lizzie May Holmes?

A Yes sir.

Q How long has it been Holmes?

A Since the 26th of November, last.

Q What was your name before that?

A Schwenk.

Q While you were one of the Alarm, did you sign your name or your initials to articles which you wrote?

A Yes sir.

Q Are articles under which the initials L.M.S. appear, are they your articles?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you write an article under date of April 23rd, 1886, headed, "It is coming"?

A I don't remember.

Q (Witness hands paper.)

A Yes sir.

Q You wrote that, did you?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you mean it when you wrote it?

A I meant it in the same way that any prophet means anything.

Q You meant it as a prophet?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you claim powers of prophacy or clairvoyancy?

A Simply as judge of the events and past history.

Q How long were you a member of the International?

A A little over two years I think.

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Q You were a member of the American Group were you not?

A Yes sir.

Q That used to meet at Grief's Hall, 54 West Lake Street?

A Sometimes, yes sir.

Q Did you ever make speeches there?

A I may have spoken once or twice.

Q Which were afterwards reported in the Alarm?

A No sir. I don't think any of my speeches ever appeared in the Alarm.

Q Did you ever march in procession?

A I have.

Q Carried the red flag?

A No sir, I never carried the red flag.

Q Grief's Hall is a beer saloon, or connected with a beer saloon?

A I think there is a beer saloon in the building.

Q What time was it that you went to the Arbeiter Zeitung, May the 4th?

A I think it was about 8 when I arrived there?

Q Was the meeting in session when you got there?

A I don't know, they were just about adjourning or going away.

Q You say that meeting was called to consider what?

A To consider the organization of sewing girls in the city.

Q Were there any sewing girls there?

A No sir, it was nothing but a business meeting of the Group.

Q How long did the meeting last?

A About half an hour,

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as near as I can judge.

Q Where did you go after the meeting?

A I went to the haymarket.

Q Did you go by yourself?

A No sir.

Q In whose company?

A Mrs. parsons.

Q Where did you go after you got to the Haymarket?

A We presently got on the wagon.

Q That was the wagon back of the speakers?

A North of the speakers.

Q How long did you sit there?

A About an hour, I could not judge exactly.

Q Then you went to Seph's Hall?

A Yes sir.

Q What time was it when you got to Zeph's Hall?

A I don't know.

Q Zeph's Hall is a beer saloon isn't it--The place where you were was a lager beer saloon wasn't it?

A I suppose it was.

Q Don't you know it was?

A Yes sir.

Q How long did you sit there?

A About five minutes, I guess.

Q Where did you sit--five minutes?

A I should judge it was about five minutes.

Q Was that the longest you were there?

A Well, I think it was, yes sir.

Q Where did you sit?

A I sat near the table.

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Q Where was the table?

A Near the window.

Q Who sat with you?

A Mrs. Parsons sat there.

Q Anybody else?

A Not right at the table, no sir.

Q Anybody near you?

A Not nearer than Mrs. Parsons was.

Q I mean anybody except you and Mrs. Parsons at that table or near it?

A There was another gentleman sitting on the other side of Mrs. Parsons.

Q On the other side of Mrs. Parsons?

A Mrs.

Q Who was that gentleman?

A It was this gentleman that I spoke of awhile ago, I don't know what his name was.

Q You don't know his name?

A No sir.

Q But you know that he looks like Parsons?

A Yes sir.

Q And he was sitting in the window?

A Yes sir.

Q And he could have been mistaken for Parsons by

A Yes sir.

Q You think he looks like Mr. Parsons, but you don't know his name?

A I think he resembles him somewhat.

Q Where did Parsons sit?

A I don't know, he was sitting down at one of the beer tables.

Q Was he sitting at any of the beer tables?

A Yes sir, once, I think.

Q Which beer table?

A I don't remember.

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Q Was it North or South of the stove?

A I don't remember where the stove sat.

Q Didn't see any stove that you remember of?

A I don't have any distinct recollection of the stove.

Q Was it in the North or the South part of the room that he sat?

A I guess it was towards the South, I could not tell exactly.

Q How far was it from you? Point out the distance in this room, how far it was that he sat down from you.

A A little further than from that table (Indicating).

Q Not much further--could he have been as far as the prisoners from you?

A I think he might have been.

Q No further than that?

A I think not.

Q Who was sitting with him when he sat at that table?

A Mr. Brown, I think.

Q Then what did he do?

A Walked about.

Q Did you see him sitting at any other table?

A I don't think I noticed him.

Q How often did you see him walking about in that room?

A I didn't take particular notice.

Q Did you keep your eyes on him all the time?

A (No answer).

Q Do you want to add anything to that answer, did you keep your eyes on him all the time?

A No sir.

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Q Do you know whether there is a side door to the saloon or not?

A I don't believe there is, I don't think there is, I didn't see any.

Q Do you know whether he went out of the side door or not?

A I don't think he did.

Q Could he without your seeing him?

A No. There was no side door, I am pretty sure there was no side door.

Q Where was Fischer?

A He sat at the table further North

Q Where was that table?

A I can't tell you just precisely where it was.

Q Where was it with reference to the stove?

A I told you I don't remember about the stove.

Q Can you tell what part of the room it was in?

A What?

Q The table at which he sat?

A Not exactly.

Q Was it in the North end or in the South end?

A It was towards the North end.

Q How far was he from you?

A I should judge about as far as he sits now.

Q Anybody sitting with him?

A Yes sir.

Q Who was it?

A I don't know.

Q Did you ever see the man before that was with him?

A I did not observe him closely.

Q Was there many people in that saloon or not?

A Well,

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there were quite a number.

Q How far could you see across the room from where you were sitting?

A I could see all over it.

Q Now, Mrs. Holmes, wasn't that saloon crowded with people standing up?

A Well, I don't know.---

Q So that the people sitting down at one table could see but a very short distance?

A The room wasn't really crowded.

Q Wasn't the room really crowded so that a person sitting down could only see a very short distance in it?

A No, the room was not so crowded as that.

Q It was not so crowded as that?

A No sir.

Q Where were you when the bomb exploded?

A I sat at the side of the table.

Q How long had you been sitting there at that time?

A Well, I should judge about five minutes.

Q Where did you go after that?

A After what?

Q After the bomb exploded?

A Sat right there awhile.

Q How long did you sit there?

A Well, I could not say.

Q Did you keep your seat?

A No sir, I arose to my feet.

Q Where did you go?

A I went in the back part of the building.

Q Then where did you go?

A Presently we went out and went home.

Q Who went out?

A Mr. Parsons and Mrs. Parsons and myself.

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Q Anybody else?

A Not right close to us, no sir.

Q Did anybody meet you before you had gone very far?

A Yes sir.

Q Who met you?

A Mr. Brown.

Q How far did you walk with Mr. Brown?

A We went--I think we went to the corner of DesPlaines and Kinzie.

Q Then where did you go?

A I went home, I went with Mrs. Parsons.

Q Did you go with yourself or Mrs. Parsons?

A I went alone.

Q Did she go clear home with you?

A Who?

Q Mrs. Parsons?

A No sir.

Q Where did you live at that time?

A Geneva.

Q Did you go to the train?

A No sir.

Q Where did you go?

A I went to Mrs. Parsons house.

Q Staid there that night, did you?

A Yes sir.

Q Did Mr. Parsons go home?

A No sir.

Q Where did you leave Parsons?

A On the corner there of Kinzie-and

Q That was the last you saw of him at that time, was it?

A Yes sir.

Q How long did you stay there at Mrs. Parsons house?

A Until the next morning.

Q How long were you an assistant editor of the Alarm?

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A I think it was about a year, I can't be certain.

Q You are a anarchist, are you not?

A As I understand anarchy, yes sir.

Q Do you know Spies?

A Yes sir.

Q How long have you known him?

A About three years, I guess.

Q Do you know Fielding?

A Yes sir.

Q How long have you known him?

A About four years.

Q Was he interested in the paper while you were an editor of it?

A He was a stockholder.

Q Did he have anything to do with the management?

A Yes sir, I believe letters were addressed to him, complaints.

Q Complaints were directed to him were they not?

A Yes sir.

Q How often were you in the Arbeiter Zeitung, how many times a week?

A Sometimes not at all a week.

Q Is that where you wrote your editorials?

A No sir.

Q Where did you write them?

A I wrote them at home sometimes, and various places.

Q Well, about how often were you in that building?

A Well I don't think I have ever been there more than five or six--seven or eight times.

Q Do you know where the bureau of information for the International was?

A No sir, I don't believe I do.

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Q What?

A No sir, I don't think I do.

Q Don't you know where it was?

A I can't remember now.

Q You used to write for this paper, didn't you?

A Yes sir.

Q You were an editor of it for a year?

A Assistant editor.

Q Do you mean to say that you don't know where the bureau of information for the International was?

A At this moment I can't remember.

Q Wasn't it in the Arbeiter Zeitung?

A I suppose it was.

Q Don't you know that Parsons was a member of that bureau?

A No sir.

Q And Harshberger was?

A What I mean is that I don't know where the letters were addressed.

Q Don't you remember that they were addressed to 107 Fifth Avenue?

A No sir, I don't know it.

Q Don't you know that August Spies was a member of that bureau?

A No sir, I don't remember that.

Q Don't you remember it now?

A No sir, I would not be really certain now, I would not swear to it.

Q Don't you know that Rowe was a member of it?

A No sir.

Q But you do know that Parsons was?

A Yes sir, I remember now that his name was on it.

Q Did you use to make speeches on the Lake front.

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A No sir.

Q Never made any there?

A No sir.

By Mr. Foster.

Q In this bureau of information of which you say Parsons was a member, I will ask you if that is what you refer to as the bureau of information?

A Yes sir, I suppose that is it.

Q You say Speies is a member of the bureau of information, his address is given as 107 Fifth Avenue?

A Yes sir.

Q And that A. R. Parsons' address as a member of thebureau of information is 77 West Indiana Street?

A Yes sir.

Q Is that where he lives?

A Yes sir, at that time.

Q Now, Mrs. Holmes you have said that you were an anarchist as you understand it. How do you understand it, just tell us what you mean?

A Well, the derivation of the word is, an, means no, and archy means coercion of force. It means really self government. I should consider it the perfect liberty to live according to natures laws, according to natural laws.

Q What do you mean by natural laws?

A Why, I donIt know that I can give you the definition of natural laws, I supposed that everybody understood them. For instance if we are hungry we know we demand something to eat, and every other want in the same way. We want perfect liberty

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to live up to natural laws.

Q That is you believe as distinguished from compulsory laws that the natural laws are the ones by which you should be governed?

A Yes sir.

Q And that is what you understand to be anarchy?

A A Yes sir.

Q And is it that kind of an anarchist you are?

A Yes sir.

Q I will ask you whether anarchy is understood by you and as taught by you in your writings had reference to the use of force or dynamite?

A No sir. Really when we have anarchy there would be no force. The theory of anarchy is opposed to all idea of force.

Q And of coercion?

A Yes sir.

By Mr. Ingham.

Q You say you never advocated the use of force?

A I didn't say so.

Q Did you ever advocate arson or advise persons to commit arson in your writings?

A No sir.

Q Did you write the articles entitled "Notice to the tramps" over the signature L. M. S., appearing in the April 24th number of the Alarm?

A Yes sir.

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Q You did?

A Yes sir.

Q You remember that do you?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember the concluding sentence of that article

A Yes sir.

Q (Reading) "Stay, have you a match about you".

A Will you read the whole article.

Q (Reading) "What are you to do? Great Heavens, jump into the lake? Fly up in the air?

A Read the whole article.

Q Or stay--have you a match about you?"

THE WITNESS: I object to his reading that unless he reads it all.

MR. INGHAM: I will ask you what you meant by that phrase "Have you a match about you" That was a notice to tramps, wasn't it?

A Yes sir.

Q Describing the condition in which tramps live?

MR. FOSTER: Let the writing speak for itself.

MR. INGHAM: I will read it then.

(Reading) "Notice to tramps. In a beautiful little town not far from Chicago lives a large class of cultivated, well informed people. They have Shakespeare, Lowell, Longfellow and Whittier at their tongues ends and are posted in history and grow enthusiastic over the wickedness of the safely abolished institutions of the past. They say eloquent things about old fugitive slave laws, etc. which made it criminal to

[Image, Volume M, Page 306]

feed and shelter a starving human if he were black. Posted on the roadsides, in the hotels and stores is a Notice to Tramps, an abomniable document which compares well with the old notices to run away negroes which used to deface similar buildings. It is against the law to feed a tramp. You are liable to fine if you give a cup of coffee and a piece of bred to a brother man, who needs it and asks you for it. This is a Christian community, under the flag of the free. Look out, you wretched slaves. If, after toiling through your best years you are suddenly thrown out of a job along with thousands of others, do not start out to hunt for work, for you will strike plenty of such towns as this. You must not walk from town to town. You must not stay where you are in idleness. You must move on. You must not ride, you have no money, and those tracks and cars you helped to build are not for such as you. You must not ask for anything to eat or a place to sleep. You must not lie down and die, for then you would shock people's morals. What are you to do. Great Heavens. Jump into the lake. Fly up in the air? Or stay--have you a match about you?

Q What did you mean by that "Have you a match about you"?

A The piece speaks for itself, I don't think it needs any explanation from me.

Q If you have never advocated the use of force or arson how can you explain that last clause?

A I said the theory of anarchy,

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according to my idea of it, was opposed to force. There is a difference between a revolutionist and anrachist. There a great many anarchists who are not revolutionists, anarchy is opposed to force.

Q What do you mean by that phrase, "Stay, have you a match about you?

A The piece speaks for itself.

Q It means just what it says?

A It speaks for itself.

Q And you wrote it deliverately, and on the 24th day of April, 1886 it was published?

A Yes sir..

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