Haymarket Affair Digital Collection

Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1
Testimony of John M. Fleming, 1886 Aug. 6.

Volume M, 179-185, 7 p.
Fleming, John M.

Direct examination by Mr. Foster. Cross-examination by Mr. Ingham. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al. Surgeon who treated wounds of both citizens and officers at the Desplaines Street Station. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.M 180), medical care and wounds (vol.M 180).

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August 6th, 1886, 10 o'clock A. M.

Court met pursuant to adjournment.


a witness called and sworn on behalf of the defendants, was examined in chief by Mr. Foster, and testified as follows:

Q What is your name?

A John M. Fleming.

Q What is your business?

A Physician.

Q Are you a graduate of any medical school or college?

A Yes sir.

Q Also a surgeon?

A Yes sir.

Q Where do you reside?

A 112 Washington street.

Q Where is your office?

A Same number.

Q How long have you resided in Chicago?

A 18 years.

Q How long have you practiced medicine and surgery?

A 14 years.

Q I will ask you whether you were one of the surgeons that was performing services at the Desplaines street station on the night of the Haymarket meeting, on the 4th of May last?

A I am.

Q How many patients did you treat there that night?

A I don't think I could approximate the number, because I took no names, and paid little attention. I attended to every one I saw requiring attention, until 2 o'clock in the afternoon, from half past ten.

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Q How many citizens did you see there, how many persons other than those connected with the police force who were wounded with gun shots or bullet wounds?

A Probably a dozen.

Q Did that include those locked up in cells or those outside?

A Those out--I didn't see any in cells.

Q Were the others located in the cells?

A I don't know.

Q Of your own knowledge, you don't know?

A No sir.

Q I will ask you whether you remember, or whether you had anything to do with the extraction of a bullet from an officer's knee?

A Yes sir, I extracted a bullet from a police officer's knee.

Q What kind of looking man was that?

A He was a young man I should judge about 35 years of age.

Q Do you know whether it was Officer Krueger or not?

A I do not. I didn't know his name at the time; I took no names.

Q Have you since learned?

A He told me that he lived on Rumsey street.

Q Have you since learned that it was Officer Krueger?

A I think that was the name, sir.

Q At the time of the extracting of this bullet, or after it, had been extracted, did you have a conversation with Mr. Krueger?

Objected to.

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Mr. FOSTER: First, whether he had a conversation.

THE COURT: If the conversation cannot be omitted, then whether he had a conversation would not be admissible.

Mr. FOSTER: We propose to prove by this witness, that at the time the officer asked to see the bullet, that it was handed to him, and that he at once recognized it, and said that came from police revolvers.

THE COURT: I don't think that is admiss ble.

Defendants' counsel then and there excepted to the ruling of the court.

Mr. FOSTER: I would like to inquire of counsel or Capt. Schaack, if they have in their possession a bullet which was called the regulation bullet, or bullet regulation revolver--have you one?

Mr. SCHAACK: I have.

Mr. FOSTER: Will you have the kindness to let me take one.

(Mr. Schaack here gave Mr. Foster a cartridge)

Q I will ask you to look at that bullet and state how that compares to the bullet that you took from the knee of Officer Krueger, or the officer, whatever his name may be.

Mr. GRINNELL: My version is that Krueger's bullet was in evidence, offered in evidence and shown to the jury, and I think Krueger put it in his pocket and walked off with it.

THE COURT: That would not make any difference as to the competency of this evidence, whether in fact that bullet was

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accessible or not. It don't change the rule as to whether this evidence is admissible. I think the doctor may say whethe that bullet is the same as he extracted?

A I think the bullet is the same, though I could not state it positively.

Mr. FOSTER: You best judgment is, it is the same bullet as to size and shape and general appearance?

A It was conical appearance and of large calibre.

Q What became of the bullet?

A I gave it to the officer from whom I extracted it.

Q At his request?

A Yes, he wished to add it to his collection.

Q What do you mean by that?

Objected to.

THE COURT: It is not admissible; the fact that he gave it to him is admissible. The fact that he gave it to him is admissible, but what he said about it, is not.

Mr. FOS ER: Q I will ask the doctor what he means by collection.

THE COURT: The doctor's remark that he wished to add it to his collection is not admissible.

Mr. FOSTER: Q Now, I will ask you if you took a bullet from any one else besides the officer that night?

A I did.

Q Who from?

A I don't know the man's name; he is a shoemaker and resides at 25 N. Halsted street.

Q Is he an old man or young man?

A A middle aged man.

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Q Residing where?

A At 25 N. Halsted street.

Q I will ask you to state whether or not you examined that bullet?

A I did.

Q How did that bullet compare as to size and shape to the bullet that has just been shown you, and also with the bullet that you extracted from Officer Krueger?

A I did not compare the two bullets together, because I didn't have the other. I only carried it in my mind.

Q According to your best judgment, how did they compare?

A They seemed to be identical. The one was indented and the other was not.

Q Which one was indented?

A The bullet that I extracted from the shoulder had passed through the head of the humerus, and shattered it at the time, and was indented at the anterior end of the bullet by contact with the bone.

Q Except as to the indentation, did they seem to be the same bullet, the same character?

A I think they were the same size, and the rings were the same upon the posterior end of the bullet.

Q Was there any citizen or citizens that were killed, that was dead there at the station from the effect of pistol wounds?

A There was one.

Q I will ask you whether or not you saw the bullet which was extracted from the body of the deadman?

A I did.

Q Who extracted that bullet?

A Dr. Bausman.

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Q Where does Dr. Bausman live?

A 113 W. Madison street.

Q I will ask you whether you examined that bullet?

A I did.

Q Did you compare that bullet with the one you took from the shoulder of the shoe-maker?

A I did.

Q How did they compare as to their shape and general appearance?

A They were identical.

Q Are you a socialist, communist or anarchist?

A I am not.

Q Are you acquainted with Capt. Bonfield?

A Yes Sir, slightly.

Q Capt. Ward?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you know Lieut. Shea?

A I don't remember them.

Q What other police officers are you acquainted with?

A Oh, a great many. I have known the policemen in my neighborhood intimately ever since I began to practice surgery

Cross Examination
By Mr. Ingham.

Q You say the bullet you extracted from Officer Krueger's knee, was a conical shaped bullet, like this?

A Somewhat similar.

Q Shaped like that?

A Yes sir.

Q Are you positive it was the same calibre?

A I could not swear to it. I am not much positive.

Q All you could swear to is it was a conical bullet, and

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somewhat similar to this?

A Yes.

Q Are not all revolver bullets conical and somewhat similar to this?

A Yes sir.

Q That is all that are made in cartridges, at any rate?

A Yes sir, some of them have rings on them at the posterior end of the bullet and are more or less hollowed there and others are not.

Q Do you know how many rings there are on this bullet?

A I do not.

Q You can only see one; that is outside of the shell?

A Yes sir.

Q Could you tell from the appearance of that bullet whether fired from a Smith & Wesson or a Harrington revolver?

A I could not.

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