Haymarket Affair Digital Collection

Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Testimony of Carl Richter, 1886 Aug. 2.

Volume L, 168-192, 25 p.
Richter, Carl.
Leather worker; German immigrant.

Direct examination by Mr. Zeisler. Cross-examination by Mr. Grinnell. Testified on behalf of the Defense, Spies, August et al.

Stood in Crane's Alley during the Haymarket meeting. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Spies' speech at Haymarket (vol.L 170), McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.L 175), movement, position or tenor of the crowd (vol.L 175), Schwab, Michael (vol.L 172), Parsons' speech at Haymarket (vol.L 176), eight-hour movement (vol.L 176), Fielden's speech at Haymarket (vol.L 177), Spies, August (vol.L 171), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.L 179), Captain Ward's command to disperse (vol.L 180), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.L 181).

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a witness called and sworn on behalf of the defendants was examined in chief by Mr. Zeisler and testified as follows:

Q What is your name?

A My name is Carl Richter.

Q Where do you reside?

A 53 North Clark street.

Q What is your occupation?

A My business?

Q Yes sir.

A I am in the leather business.

Q Who do you work for?

A Leather notions works.

Q Who do you work for?

A I am working for Fenton now, on Wabash Ave.

Q What is his number?

A I don't know exactly the number--it is near Adams street.

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Q On Wabash Ave.?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember the night of May 4th?

A Yes sir.

Q Where were you on the night of that day?

A Well, I left home about half past seven, and then went to the haymarket with a friend of mine. We went around there until the meeting commenced.

Q Where were you standing when the meeting commenced as you remember?

A I was standing right in the alley in the middle of the alley.

Q In the middle of which alley?

A The alley there.

Q The alley at the hind end of the wagon?

A In behind the wagon, in front of the wagon.

Q Here is Haymarket here, Desplaines street here, Crane Bros. Manufacturing Company here (indicating)?

A There is the wagon.

Q Here is the alley north of Randolph street, and here is another alley still more north?

A I was standing at the first alley north of Randolph.

Q Now, with reference to the sidewalk where were you?

A On the east side. There is no alley on the other side.

Q Did you notice a lamp on the corner of that alley?

A Sure, I did. I was leaning against that, at blast, against that lamp.

Q Now, about what time did you arrive here?

A I arrived

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there before Mr. Spies asked for Mr. Parsons.

Q What did you hear Spies say?

A Mr. Spies asked: "Is Parsons in" or something like it anyhow--I don't know exactly the words.

Q While Mr. Spies said that, you say you leaned against the lamp?

A No, I didn't lean against the lantern then.

Q Where were you then?

A I was standing on the alley there, or nearly there.

Q Now, where was Mr. Spies while asking "Is Parsons here"?

A He was on the wagon.

Q Did he open the meeting at that time?

A No, he did not. He left the wagon.

Q Did you notice in what direction he went?

A No, I did not.

Q How soon after that did you see Mr. Spies again?

A Well it was a little afterwards--I don't know whether it was--not much over five minutes--I don't know exactly.

Q About five minutes?

A Maybe ten--I can't say exactly.

Q Where did you see Mr. Spies then?

A He was in the wagon again.

Q What did you hear Mr. Spies say then?

A He said he was going to open the meeting.

Q Do you remember what words he used?

A Yes, not exactly.

Q About?

A About.

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Q What did he say?

A He said he was on the Black Road at McCormick's meetings.

Q In what words did he open the meeting?

A He said: "There is not person here gentlemen, and I will talk to you a little while" and so on, something like that he said.

Q Where were you standing or where were you between the time when Mr. Spies left the wagon after having asked for Parsons, and his coming back and opening the meeting?

A I always was standing right there at the alley.

Q Did you change your position any?

A Not until at last.

Q What do you mean by "until at last"?

A Until at last Mr. Fielden pretty nearly got over with his speaking.

Q You say then that from the time Mr. Spies asked for Parsons up, to the time that you left the meeting, or that Fielden was about to close, you did not leave that position there?

A No sir, I did not.

Q I will ask you whether there was anything to prevent your seeing whoever went into that alley?

A No sir.

Q Do you know Mr. Spies?

A Yes, I am slightly acquainted with Mr. Spies.

Q Can you tell me how many conversations you have had with him?

A Well, hardly, only good day or goodbye--that is about all.

Q How long have you known Mr. Spies?

A Well, I know Mr.

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Spies for a year or two.

Q In what way did you make his acquaintance you may state?

A I was engaged at McVicker's Theatre, at German theatre.

Q In what capacity?

A As actor.

Q For the Eistentein?

A The Eisenstein Dramatio Company, yes sir We were playing for the International Association, I guess.

Q What do you mean you were playing for that--Eisenstein?

A We were engaged there.

Q The Eisenstein Company were engaged?

A Eisenstein Company were engaged at the theater to play for a festival.

Q Engaged by the International Association to give a performance?

A Yes sir, that is what I said.

Q At that occasion you made Mr. Spies' acquaintance?

A Yes.

Q You saw him afterwards from time to time?

A once in a while, yes sir.

Q He said goodbye or how do you do?

A That is all.

Q Any intimate relationship of friendship?

A Not at all.

MR. ZEISLER: Mr. Schwab will you please stand up (Mr. Schwab here stood up)

Q Did you ever see this gentleman before?

A No sir, that is the first time I see this gentleman as far as I know.

Q I will ask you whether while you were standing at that lamp post you saw Mr. Spies or Mr. Schwab or both of them go,

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enter into that alley?

A No sir, they did not.

Q Where did you say or what did you say your position was in the time between Mr. Spies asking for Parsons and the time that Mr. Spies opened the meeting--- was it at the mouth of the alley or near the lamp post?

A No, it was about the mouth of the alley, about the middle of it, you know, about the middle.

Q Was it nearer the curb stone or nearer the walls of the building?

A It was near the gutter, in the middle.

Q There you stood?

A There is where I stood.

Q Did you observe anybody going into the alley?

A No sir, if Mr. Spies would have entered the alley--

MR. GRINNELL: He didn't ask you that.

Q I will ask you, knowing Mr. Spies as you do, if he had entered the alley do you believe that you would have necessarily seen him?

Objected to. Objection sustained, exception.

Q Was there anything to prevent you from seeing Mr. Spies if he had entered the alley between the time of his asking for Mr. Parsons and the time of his opening the meeting?

Objected to.

THE COURT: He may state his own position and how many people there were around him, but whether there was anything to prevent him seeing Spies is a conclusion.

Defendants except to ruling of Court.

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MR. ZEISLER: Q Was there anything to obstruct his view so that he would not have seen him if he had entered?

THE COURT: That calls for his conclusion. What his own position was he can state and whether there were other people around him and if so, how many, you may have him state that.

MR. ZEISLER: Q Do you remember having seen Mr.Schwab the gentleman who stood up here--state whether you saw him on that occasion on that evening at any time?

A No sir.

Q Did you look straight at the wagon at the time Mr. Parsons spoke?

Objected to.

MR. GRINNELL: Let this man state where he was looking and what he was doing.

MR. ZEISLER: Q In what way were you looking while Spies was asking for Parsons?

A I was always looking at Mr. Spies.

Q How long were you looking at Mr. Spies?

A Until he got through with his speech.

Q I mean the first time when he simply asked "Is Parsons here?"

A Then he went right away from the wagon.

Q Did you notice on what side of the wagon he a lighted?

A A No, I didn't notice that.

Q Did Mr. Spies go toward the alley where you stood?

A I can't say because I didn't see him come there.

Q How many people were there around you at that time?

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A Well, it was not so very crowded yet.

Q About ten minutes after that you say Mr. Spies came back and commenced his speech?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember what he said--did it impress itself on your mind so that you can now recall any sentence?

A Yes, most of it.

Q Give us the substance of it as near as you can.

A He objected to be called a murderer--

MR. GRINNELL: (Interrupting) Use his words. Did he say that he objected.?

THE COURT: What did he say was the question?

THE WITNESS: He said he was at the meeting on the 3rd at McCormick's building, and that there was a riot, and they blamed him in the papers and by the police that he was the murderer of them fellows that was shot, and he said that that was a lie, and he objected to that.

MR. ZEISLER: Q What else did he say if you remember?

A That is mostly what he said.

Q Did you hear any responses from the crowd?

A Not many.

Q Occasionally you heard them?

A Yes, once in a while.

Q How was the crowd with reference to its being orderly or tumultuous?

A It was quite orderly I suppose.

Q Did you notice here many demonstrations of applause?

A Not much, only once on a while a little applause.

Q Did you hear Mr. Parsons speak?

A Oh, yes.

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Q Do you remember about what time Mr. Parsons arrived there?

A Well, Mr. Spies was talking about ten or fifteen minutes, and then Mr. Parsons arrived, and then Mr. Spies said: "I hear Mr. Parsons is here now, and he is more acquainted with the English language, and so I will let him speak--" something like that any how.

Q Now, what do you remember of Mr. Parson's speech?

A Mr. Parsons said that all the tools and everything like that ought to belong to the workingmen. That was the meaning of the socialistic party, and then he said that the workingmen only get about fifteen per cent for their work, and the capitalists put eighty-five per cent in their pockets.

Q Did you hear him make any reference to Jay Gould during his speech?

A Yes, he did, and one fellow hollered out: "Hang him" or "Kill him," something like that.

Q Did you hear Parsons make any response to that?

A Yes, Mr. Parsons said: "No, don't kill him, don't kill anybody. Its no use to kill any one." He wanted the system to be killed, and not any men.

Q Is that all you remember of Mr. Parson's speech?

A Let me see--there was something else first.

Q Did you hear him say anything about the eight hour question.

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember what it was?

A He didn't say much about it. He said it was only a very small favor what the working

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men were asking for and that was not even granted to them.

Q After him who spoke?

A After him spoke Mr. Fielden.

Q Which parts of Mr. Fielden's speech have impressed themselves upon your mind so that you can now recall them?

A He was talking about the socialistic party, and wanted everybody to join the socialistic party.

Q How near the corner of Crane Bros. building did you stand in the alley when Spies asked for Parsons? And while he was gone and before he commenced his speech?

A I was standing always in the middle of the alley there right there on the gutter.

Q I mean how near the corner of Crane's building?

A Right there a little further.

Q Come down and tell us and show me exactly where you stood?

A Right here (Indicating) That is where I was standing.

Q Midway between the curbstone and the walls, and in the center of the alley?

A Yes sir in the center of the alley on the sidewalk.

Q Was anybody standing between you and the corner of either Crane Bros. building or this building here?

A There was a crowd standing around here, but only a few that time.

Q About how many?

A Well, I can't say exactly.

Q Was more than two or three?

A Yes.

Q How many?

A Maybe ten.

Q They were standing in your neighborhood?

A They were

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standing in my neighborhood.

Q How far from you, how thickly settled was that place?

A It was not thickly settled at all.

Q Are you a socialist?

A No sir.

Q Are you a communist?

A No sir.

Q Are you an anarchist?

A No sir.

Q Do you belong to any labor union?

A None at all.

Q Do you belong to any socialistic organization of any kind?

A Not at all.

Q Are you a married man?

A Yes sir.

Q Got a family?

A A wife, that is all.

Q How long have you lived in the United States of America?

A Fourteen years.

Q How long have you lived in Chicago?

A About four years

Q Are you a citizen of the United States?

A Yes sir.

Q A registered voter in this county?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, how long did you stay at the meeting?

A I stayed at the meeting until everything was over.

Q What do you mean by everything was over?

A Until about the last shot was fired.

Q Did you hear the explosion of the bomb?

A I heard the cracking and so on, but I didn't know whether it was the explosion of the bomb or whether it was shooting.

Q You heard a lot of shots I suppose?

A That is what I heard.

Q Did you or not hear more distinctly some loud demonstrations?

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A No, I saw it was all pistol shots-that is what I first saw.

Q Where were you standing at the time you heard the first explosion?

A Well, there was a rush for Randolph street when the police came, and I tried to stay, but they pushed me further down and when the explosion was I was about in the middle of the building on the corner.

Q You mean midway between the alley and Randolph street?

A Yes sir, I was about the middle of the building there.

Q Did you see the bomb in the air?

A No sir.

Q You say you were running on the sidewalk towards Randolph street?

A I was not running. I was pushed.

Q Or trying to run as fast as you could?

A I did not try to run. I tried to stay there.

THE COURT: He said other people pushed him, that he tried to stay where he was.

MR. ZEISLER: Q Where then were you at the time of the explosion of the bomb?--I mean to say what were you doing at that time?

A I was on the sidewalk, about the middle of the building.

Q Where were you standing?

A I was always pushed down to Randolph street, was getting nearer to Randolph street.

Q Did you see the police come?

A No. All at once they were there. Everybody hallooed: "The police is coming" and then right afterwards they were there.

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Q Did you hear the command to disperse?

A Oh, yes.

Q Where were you at that time?

A At that time I was right hear the lamp post.

Q Now then, when did you commence to move?

A Just at the same time when the command was given because then the crowd tried to get over to Randolph street.

Q You did the same?

A I did the same.

Q What direction did you go in after you reached Randolph street?

A I didn't reach Randolph street. I jumped over the railing on that house on the corner.

Q What caused you to jump over that railing?

A A great many others were jumping over there and it was pretty hot. around there.

Q What do you mean by hot?

A It was too much firing for me there.

Q Where did the firing come from?

A From the middle of the street.

Q Did you notice any firing come from the north of you, directly north of you?

A No sir.

Q Did you observe the people on the sidewalk while you were moving towards Randolph street, and what did you notice, if anything?

A Everyone seemed to try to get away--that is all.

Q Did you see any of those who were on the sidewalk return the fire?

A None of them in my neighborhood.

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Q There is an area way down here, is there not?

A Yes, there is an area goes down in the cellar.

Q You jumped over the railing?

A I jumped over the railing down to there.

Q How much of the command to disperse did you hear?

A I heard it all.

Q Can you repeat the words?

A Not exactly.

Q What is your best recollection?

A "I command you in the name of the State, of the people of Illinois to close this meeting--" something like that.

Q You don't claim that is accurate?

A I don't claim that that is exactly the same words, but it is the same meaning anyhow.

Q Now then, did you hear any response to that from any source?

A No sir.

Q At that time was there any noise that could have prevented you from hearing anything that was spoken in a loud tone of voice?

Objected to.

Q Was there anything to prevent you?

THE COURT: Q What was the condition of things there--was it quiet or noisy?

A Everybody wanted to go away--that is all. There was not much noise there.

Q Now, before the police came, say within half a minute before the police came, or within a minute of the time,

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did you hear anybody say some such words as these: "Here come the blood-hounds, you do your duty and I will do mine"? or "You men do your duty and I'll do mine"?

A No, I didn't hear any such words.

Q Did you hear the speaking that was going on at that time

A I did.

Q Did you hear it distinctly?

A Well,- I was leaning against that lamp post at that time.

Q That is not an answer to my question. I asked you whether you heard what Mr. Fielden said within the last few minutes prior to the police arriving at the spot?

A Well, he said it was going to get cool, and the men may be tired out, and he was going to close the meeting.

Q Did you understand his words?

A Yes, that was about what he said.

Q But you didn't hear anybody say "Here come the blood-hounds"?

A No, I didn't hear that at all.

Q Mr. Fielden didn't use that language in his speech, did he?

A No sir.

Q Now then, you say during Mr. Fielden's speech it became a little threatening, did it not?

A It came a cool breeze, yes.

Q Did you hear anybody make a suggestion about adjourning to some other place?

A Yes sir.

Q Who was that?

A Mr. Fielden said--they were talking

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on the wagon.

Q Do you know who said anything about that?

A I think it was Mr. Fielden.

Q What was said about it?

A It was said "We want to go over to the--I don't know--Zepf's Hall or which hall it was.

Q Was anything said why they should adjourn to Zepf's Hall?

A No, not at all.

Q That was however at the time it became threatening and cloudy?

A That was when the cool breeze came.

Q How long after that did Mr. Fielden talk?

A Only a few minutes.

Q Did you hear Mr. Fielden make any answer to that suggestion, say anything in regard to it?

A No, I didn't hear that. But they had a little conversation on the wagon and he then came up and said "You had better close this meeting."

Q Now, after that did you notice whether the crowd increased in numbers or decreased in numbers?

A No, when the cool breeze came everybody thought it would rain and a good many of them went away.

Q How many people in your judgment were left there around the wagon apparently listening to the speeches when the police came and immediately before they came?

A There was a good many left--there was a pretty big crowd there first, and plenty left.

Q About how many?

A I can't judge that.

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Q Could you say by hundreds?

A No, I couldn't say that.

Q Two or three or four hundred?

A I couldn't say that. The crowd was very small, commenced to get very small.

Q Where were the most of the people standing at that time?

A At the sidewalk and around the wagon.

Q When the police came, did you notice where the people went?

A Some of them went north and some of them went south to Randolph street.

Q Did you see any go towards the sidewalks, did you see any people go to the sidewalks, from the street to the sidewalks?

A Yes sir, a good many.

Q When the police came?

A Yes, sure.

Q During the entire evening, did you notice any fighting there of the people, any disturbances or breachese of the peace

A No, I didn't see anything.

Q Did you notice another wagon a little north of the speakers' truck?

A No, I did not.

Q Did you notice any change in the demeanor of the crowd during Mr. Fielden's speech from what it was during Mr. Parson's or Mr. Spies' speech--did they become more excited, wild anything of that kind?

A No, I didn't see much wildness there.

Q But comparatatively speaking did you notice any change-- were the people wilder during Mr. Fielden's speech than during Mr. Parsons or Spies's speech?

A No, I did not.

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Cross Examination by
Mr. Grinnell.

Q How long have you lived at No. 53 north Clark street?

A I lived there about nine months now.

Q Where did you live before that?

A I was living at No. 91 North Wells street.

Q How long did you live there?

A Well, I was living there a good while.

Q Ever since you have been in Chicago?

A No, I lived there over a year, maybe a year and a half--I don't know exactly.

Q 91 what street?

A 91 North Wells street--third floor.

Q You have been at 53 North Clark Street nine months?

A Yes sir.

Q Keeping house there?

A No, rooming there.

Q Where do you take your meals?

A I take my meals now at 53 North Clark in a restaurant down stairs.

MR. ZEISLER: Q Is that the Albany?

A No, it is Mrs. William's restaurant it is called.

Q How long have you been working for Fenton?

A I was working there now over three weeks.

Q Where were you working on the 4th of May?

A On the 4th of May I was working there too, was working here before.

Q You went back there?

A I went back there since three weeks.

Q What is your business?

A My business is satchel maker

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bags and ladies' satchels. That is my regular business.

Q What are you doing at Fenton's?

A I am working there at bags and leather work.

Q Sewing them?

A No, not sewing them.

Q Cutting them out?

A Fitting and cutting.

Q And somebody else sews them?

A Yes sir.

Q That is your trade?

A That is my trade--yes sir, leather business.

Q I understand you to say that you belong to no labor organizations?

A Not at all.

Q You don't belong to any?

A I never did.

Q How long have you known Spies?

A I can't tell exactly, about one or two years.

Q Now, do you know Balthazar Rau?

A No, I don't know Rau.

Q That night on Tuesday night May 4th you went over to the haymarket?

A Yes sir.

Q You live at 53 North Clark Street?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you work on May 4th?

A Yes sir.

Q Where?

A Fenton's.

Q When did you stop work on that day?

A At half past five.

Q Did you go straight home?

A Yes sir.

Q Before you got home did you learn anything about the haymarket meeting?

A Not at all.

Q When did you first learn there was to be a meeting at the haymarket?

A A roommate of mine came home and he said--

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Q You got your information from him?

A He told me he wanted to go to the haymarket.

Q What is his name?

A His name is Robert Lindinger.

Q He rooms at the same place?

A At the same place, in the same room.

Q I thought you were married?

A I am married, but I don't live with my wife.

Q Where does you wife live?

A My wife lives in St. Louis.

Q You have lived in Chicago four years?

A About four years.

Q Did your wife ever live here?

A She was here first.

Q She is gone back and don't live with you now?

A No sir.

Q How long since that happened?

A About three years ago I think.

Q Have you got a divorce from her?

A Not yet.

Q Has she got a divorce from you?

A Not that I know.

Q Did you live in St. Louis before you came here?

A I lived in St. Louis six and a half years, yes.

Q What were you doing there?

A Attending bar or attending to the lunch business.

Q In a lager beer saloon?

A Yes sir.

Q What was your place of business?

A At last I was working for Frank Smedle.

Q What is his business?

A I was attending bar for him.

Q How long did you attend bar there in St. Louis?

A Was

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there six and a half years.

Q Where did you go from St. Louis?

A To St. Louis I came from Burlington, Wis., Racine County.

Q How long did you live there?

A I was there two winters

Q What did you do?

A First I was working on a farm, and the second winter I started a saloon for myself.

Q Up there at Burlington?

A Burlington, Wis.

Q That is near Brown Lake?

A I guess it is on Fox and White River.

Q You kept a saloon there?

A I kept a saloon there, yes.

Q Some years ago?

A A good many years ago now.

Q How old are you?

A I was 31 the 22nd of March.

Q Where were you born?

A In Germany, Meistral, Westphalia.

Q Did you see the notice of this meeting?

A No, I didn't see any notice at all.

Q Did he go with you?

A Yes sir.

Q You went together?

A Went together.

Q Were you together all of the time?

A Were together all the time.

Q Were you leaning against the lamp post?

A No. I was leaning---

Q Where was he leaning?

A He was not leaning. He was standing in front of me.

Q Did he stand in the middle of the alley?

A Not at that time.

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Q Where did he stand?

A He was standing in the middle of the alley before, but when I was leaning on the lamp post, he was standing in front of me.

Q All the time you were right together?

A All the time we were together.

Q Both of you looking at Spies all the time?

A Looking at the speakers.

Q Both of you looking at Spies all the time?

A Yes sir.

Q Did he see Schwab?

A Not that I know.

Q You talked it over with him?

A We talked sometimes.

Q Did he say that he saw Schwab?

A He don't know none of them.

Q He didn't know any of them either?

A No sir.

Q How many times have you ever talked over this transaction with him?

A I can't tell.

Q About how many times?

A We talked about this question a good many times.

Q When was the first time you told Salomon & Zeisler anything about it?

A Saturday night.

Q Last Saturday?

A Last Saturday.

Q For the first time?

A Yes.

Q You never told anybody yourself about it?

A Yes, I told some friends about it.

Q Now, at the time you stood in the alley, whereabouts in the alley were you?

A I told you right in the middle.

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Q You said the gutter a moment ago?

A Yes sir.

Q The gutter is near the street?

A It is near the street but in the middle of the alley is another little gutter.

Q There is a gutter runs through the alley?

A It is no gutter but it goes a little further down, so the rain can run off.

Q It runs into the alley and towards the street?

A Yes sir.

Q It runs right along the length of the alley?

A Yes sir.

Q You stood about midway of the sidewalk?

A Yes sir.

Q And midway of the alley?

A Yes sir.

Q You were about half way from the edge of the sidewalk to the building?

A That is what it is.

Q And about half way between the two edges of the north and south side of the alley?

A Exactly.

Q When you stood right there in the middle, where was your friend?

A My friend was standing right the side of me.

Q Then there was two of you in the middle?

A Yes sir.

Q How long do you think you stood there?

A We moved away a foot or two.

Q Backwards and forwards?

A Yes sir.

Q Your face towards the alley all the time?

A Our faces towards the alley all the time.

Q How long do you think you stood in that alley in that place before you went up to lean against the lamp post?

A I stood there until Mr. Fielden got pretty near done with his speech.

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Q You began to stand there when Spies began to speak?

A I was standing there when Spies asked for Mr. Parsons.

Q You stood right there all that time?

A I stood right there all that time.

Q How long a time is that?

A It was about twenty minutes past ten or half past ten when the shooting commenced.

Q How long were you standing there before Spies began to speak?

A I just came into here you know. I was on the haymarket, and we didn't know where that meeting should be, and so we went around the haymarket once, and when we came back we seen a crowd rushing right there into position, and we went there too, but before Mr. Spies got on the wagon we were standing right there.

Q Now, when did you first see Spies that night?

A When he was standing on the wagon.

Q You were standing in the alley?

A I was standing there in the alley.

Q Was your friend standing right by your side?

A He was standing right by my side.

Q Which side?

A On the left hand side.

Q You saw the police come up?

A Yes sir, I did.

Q Who was on that wagon then?

A There was Mr. Fielden.

Q Anybody else?

A Yes, there was several fellows in the wagon.

Q Who else was there then?

A I don't know nobody.

Q You heard them order them to disperse in the name of the

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people of the state of Illinois or something like that?

A That is what I heard.

Q Who was on the wagon then?

A Mr. Fielden was on the wagon. I didn't see them. I don't know any of them fellows.

Q How do you know Fielden was there?

A Because he was invited to the crowd as a speaker.

MR. ZEISLER: Q Introduced?

A Introduced.

MR. GRINNELL: That is all.

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