Haymarket Affair Digital Collection

Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Testimony of Herman Schuettler, 1886 July 28.

Volume K, 515-529, 15 p.
Schuettler, Herman.
Officer, Chicago Police Department.

Direct examination by Mr. Ingham. Cross-examination by Captain Black. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. People's Exhibit 129 a&b (vol.K 519) introduced into evidence.

Arrested Louis Lingg and then searched his room. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): weapons and explosives (vol.K 516), items confiscated from the Arbeiter-Zeitung office or the defendants' homes (vol.K 519), Lingg, Louis (vol.K 515), arrest of Lingg (vol.K 515), Louis Lingg and bomb-making (vol.K 518), People's Exhibit 129 a&b (vol.K 519).

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HERMAN SCHUTTLER:, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the people was examined in chief by Mr. Ingham and testified as follows:

Q What is you name?

A Hermann Schuttler.

Q What is your business?

A Police officer.

Q Did you arrest the defendant Lingg?

A I did.

Q Where?

A At No 80 Ambrose street.

Q When did you arrest him?

A The 14th day of last May.

Q Tell the jury the whole story of the arrest?

Objected to; objection overruled and exception by defendants.

Q Where was he when you arrested him?

Q He was in a room

Q In a room where?

A No 80 Ambrose street.

Q Where is that street?

A It is one block west of the black road and Blue island avenue

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Q Down in the south west part of the city?

A Yes sir.

Q About how far southwest from the court house, the center of the city?

A About four miles-- three miles and a half.

Q What kind of house was it?

A A cottage.

Q What room was it in in the cottage?

A In the back room, the kitchen.

Q How did you get into the room

A Followed in after him.

Q Tell what took place after you got into the room?

A I went into the room, and took him for another man. I had a picture of him and he was decsribed to as a man with chin whiskers and a moustache. I had found out that he lived there, and I said; "How do you do Mr. Klein". As soon as I said that he jumped back and drew a revolver and half cocked it

Q Who did?

A Lingg?.

Q Have you got that revolver?

A It is in the possession of Captain Schaack.

Q Look at this (showing witness revolver)?

A Yes, that is the revolver. I have my mark on it there.

Q You have seen the revolver before to day?

A Yes sir.

Q This is the revolver?

A Yes sir. I grabbed the revolver and him and fell down on the floor together, and we struggled for the possession of it. Whenever the revolver would be to- towards me, he would try his best to shoot it off.

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At last he began to get it cocked again, and the only way I could do then, I got his thumb into my mouth and bit it, and he hollered; but at that time officer Lowenstein came in and pulled him off.

Q What happened after that?

A We put him under arrest; and at first he resisted to go along, and I wanted him to come along, and he said, "I refuse to be schackled", and finally got my comealongs on him, and he went along. I took him to Hinman street station, and left him there a while and went back to search the house.

Q Before you got the come-alongs on him, while you were trying to get them on him what did he say?

A He said, "shoot and kill me".

Q Is that all he said?

A Yes sir.

Q Give the whole conversation?

A He said: "You can shoot. Says I:" If you don't stop now we will have to do something? He tried to get the gun again and he said "I wish you would shoot me".

Q Do you remember anything else he said?

A I don't recollect.

Q On you way to the station did you have any conversation with him?

A Not on the way to Hinman street station

Q Where was he taken from the Hinman street station?

A To Chicago avenue station.

Q Did you have any conversation with him on the way to

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Chicago avenue station?

A I said to him; "What did you want to kill me for so very bad"? I said; "We aint such bad sort of fellows". He said "Personally, I have nothing against you, but if I had killed you and your partner, I would have been satisfied.

Q Did he say anything about shooting himself?

A He said; "I would have killed myself if I had got away with you and your partner".

Q After you had taken him to Chicago avenue station, did you go to his room on Sedgwick street?

A No sir, I went there previous to that.

Q That was previous?

A Yes sir.

Q What time did you go there?

A I went there the 7th of May.

Q What time in the day?

A I went there close about eleven o'clock.

Q Whom did you go with?

A I went with officer Stift, Lowenstein and Whalen.

Q After you got there, what did you find?

A At that time I did not find anything. I didn't go in the house then.

Q When did you go in the house?

A About three o'clock in the afternoon.

Q What did you find when you went on the house?

A We searched a trunk and found a round lead bomb in a stocking.

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Photograph of bomb referred to marked Peopl's Ex. 129.

Q In that trunk?

A Yes sir.

Q Where was that trunk, in what room.

A It was in the south-east room.

Q What else did you find there besides that bomb?

A In another stocking I found a large navy revolver.

Q Look at the revolver which I show you now (showing witness revolver)?

A Yes, that is the revolver.

Q What did you do with the bomb you found there?

A I turned it over to Captain Schaack.

Q Describe how this bomb and this revolver were-- what condition was the revolver in

Q They were loaded.

Q Both of them?

A Yes sir.

Q What else did you find in the house where Lingg had boarded or lived?

A I didn't find anything else besides that, except this in the line of weapons. I was there when we found a ladle and some tools, a coal chisel and all of those articles.

Q Look at the ladel which I now show you?

A Yes sir we found that ladle.

Q Where did you find this ladle?

A In his room.

Q In the bed-room?

A Yes sir.

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Q DiD you notice the condition of the closet in the bed-room?

A I was not in there at first. I was not the first officer in there. Things were kind of upside down., when I got there.

Q Did you take any charges out of this gun today?

A Yes sir.

Q How many?

A twelve.

Q Look at the trunk which is placed before you-- is that the trunk you found in Louis Lingg's room?

A Yes sir.

Q Were those letters "L.L" on it at that time?

A Yes.

Q Did you take anything out of the trunk yourself?

A Oh, Yes sir.

Q What?

A I took out the bomb and the stocking.

Q Where abouts was it?

A It was right at the bottom.

Q Where was the revolver?

A The revolver was lying right there, right about there (Witness indicates the position in the trunk).

Q Were there others taking things out of the trunk?

A Not at the time I was taking that out.

Q What other officers were there at that time?

A At the time I found that bomb?

Q Yes sir.

Q There was nobody there when I found the bomb.

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Officer Stift was there when I found the revolver.

Q You say you found certain tools there in that room?

A Yes.

Q What were the tools?

A There was a a chisel there,.

Q What kind of chisel?

A A kind of cold chisel. And I believe a file. There was a round porcelain lined blue cup, kind of round cup, made out of china I should judge. That is all I recollect that I found.

Q In what condition was the closet in when you saw it?

A When I seen the closet, things were a little torn up. Clothes were hanging on the wall.

Q Did you notice the base board?

A Yes sir. We seen the base board-- it was on the sides right on top of the baseboard, it looked like it had been tampered with.

Q Did you move the baseboard yourself?

A I helped move it.

Q What did you find underneath it?

A Found a lot of torn off plaster.

Q Anything torn off besides plaster?

A No sir.

Q How about the lathing?

A The lathing was sawed so you could get your hand between the floor, and between the bottom of the laths underneath and

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the floor above.

Q Both the plaster and lathing was gone?

A The lathing was not gone. It was sawed off. It did not reach down to the floor.

Q Look at this cup which I show you, a metal cup-- I suppose it is metal?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you find that there?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you find anything in it?

A No sir, nothing in it.

Q You say you found this yourself?

A Well, there was two police there when that was found. I remember that file there and also that chisel. Those others I do not.

Q This file and that chisel you remember?

A Yes sir.

Q You seen them there?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember any other things?

A I remember the hammer.

Q Where were those things?

A I Linggs room.

Q Look at the things in these boxes and see if you recognize any of those? (shows witness box)

A I saw that in Lingg's romm.

Q Did you see it there at the house before it was taken

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to the station?

A I saw those lead pipes laying between Lingg's house, the house Lingg lived in, and the next house to it, in a small gang way there.

A JUROR: Were the baseboards in the closet whitewashed?

A I could not state that, whether they were whitewashed or painted.

Mr. FOSTER: They were white were they, white color?

A Yes, they were white color.

Defendants' counsel moved the exclusion of testimony of this witness as irrelevant and immaterial; which motion was denied by the court.

To which ruling of the court counsel for defendants then and there excepted.

By Mr. Black.

Q What was the room that you speak of as Lingg's room where you found these various traps?

A Well, it was the room leading in front towards the south.

Q In what building?

A At 442 Sedgwick street.

Q Lingg was not occupying that room at the tome?

A He was not there at the time.

Q What place was that if you know?

A I know who owned the house.

Mr. GRINELL: Look at the bomb I now show you. State if you can

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identify that?

A Yes sir.

Q Were these pieces taken out of it when you found it or was it whole?

A It was whole. I unloaded it myself.

Mr. BLACK: Whose house was this?

A The house belongs to a man by the name of Schwartz.

Q Who was living there at the time?

A On that flat, Mr. Seliger.

Q When was it you made this examination in this room you call Linggs' room?

A On the 7th of May.

Q You found there all these things which you identified, did you?

A Yes sir.

Q You went through the trunk?

A Yes sir.

Q And found a revolver and bomb?

A Yes sir.

Q In the bottom of the trunk, a revolver in the top and a bomb in the bottom?

A Yes sir.

Q Were there any other things there, clothes?

A Yes sir, there were socks, envelopes and different traps there. I don't recollect now.

Q Various things?

A Yes sir.

Q Including clothing and stationary?

A Yes sir, and washing and such as that.

Q Did you have any search warrant at that time for the purpose of going through Linggs' things?

A No sir.

Q Did you have any warrant for Linggs arrest at the time you went into Lingg's room on the 14th day of May and arrested him?

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A No sir, he did not give me time.

Q Did Lingg demand whether you had a warrant?

A No sir I never spoke to him.

Q Didn't speak to you on that subject at all?

A No sir; he never gave me a chance to explain who I was.

Q What I want to know is whether or not he demanded of you a warrant.

A No sir.

Q Did you have citizens clothes on at that time?

A I did.

Q Can you talk German?

A I can.

Q Did you talk German to Lingg the day you arrested him.

A Yes sir.

Q When you first entered the room, what was the first thing that you said?

A I said: "How do you do, Mr. Klein".

Q Didn't you ask in English if his name was Lingg?

A No sir.

Q If this man's name was not Lingg?

A I don't recoleect that I did.

Q Are you certain about that?

A I may have.

Q Didn't Lingg then refer you to Mrs. Klein, saying he could not talk English?

A No sir.

Q Nothing of that sort took palce?

A No sir.

Q Wasn't Mrs. Klein there at the time?

A I didn't see her

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the second time I went in there.

Q You had been in there before?

A Yes sir.

Q How long before was it you had been in his room there?

A About twenty or twenty- five minutes.

Q Do you remember whether you gave your name to Lingg at the time?

A No sir.

Q Whom had you seen on the first visit?

A Mrs Klein.

Q Had you said anything to Mrs. Hlein as to who you were or what you were after?

A I told her I would like to see Mr. Lingg.

Q Did you give your name to Mr. Klein as Lorenz of Burling street?

A I did.

Mr. GRINELL: Q Did you give the full name?

A Yes sir.

Q What was it?

A Franz Lorenz.

Mr. BLACK: Q Franz Lorenz of Burling street?

A Yes sir.

Q How long did the tussle you and Lingg had there on the floor last?

A I could not state that. I should judge about a minute and a half or two minutes.

Q Did you talk German to Lingg that day?

A I did, Yes sir.

Q When did you begin to talk German to him?

A I talked German as soon as he gave me a chance to talk.

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Q When was that?

A As soon as we had him under control.

Q As soon as your brother officer came in and the two of you got him under control, you began to talk German?

A Yes sir.

Q Did Lingg say anything about the right of every man to defend himself?

A Not at that time.

Q When did he speak on that subject?

A He spoke on that subject on the wagon.

Q As you were taking him to the station?

A Yes sir.

Q He then claimed every man had the right to defend himself?

A Yes sir.

Q didn't he say it in relation to his defense of himself in the room when you were attempting to arrest him?

A No sir, he did not say that, not exactly that. I said, "what do you want to make such a terrible fight for"? He said "I believe in every man defending himself, and not let any body take him.

Q Did he make that statement in connection with his resistence of your attempt to arrest him?

A Yes sir.

Q You knew at the time you went to Seliger's house that Lingg was a carpenter, didn't you?

A I didn't know it at the time I went there. I found it out since.

Q Did it strike you as remarkable that you should find

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in a carpenter's room a chisel, a file, a hammer, and a saw set?

A No sir. not remarkable.

Q These deadly weapons produced here is an ordinary saw set such as used by carpenters for the purpose of setting saws?

A Yes sir.

Q Have you any idea what this cup could be used for?

A No sir.

Q It is porcelain lined?

A I think it is.

Q Did it occur to you that a man might heat shaving water in it?

A It never appearded to me what he might use it for.

Q Or somebody might hear milk in it?

A You could use it for various things.

Q You never heard of people using porcelain lined vessels with soldered bottoms for the purpose of fusing lead in?

A No sir, I don't know anything about that.

Q That is soldered on there is it not it?

A I don't know whether it is soldered or not.

Q Those are all the things you found personally I understand you, except the man's clothing and stationary in Lingg's room.

A Yes sir.

Q You took to the station this trunk of Lingg's did you?

A I did not.

Q Who did, If you know?

A I don't know.

Q Do you know whether any clothing or stationary was taken

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out of the trunk at the time or do you know whether it was carried with the rest of the find?

A I could not state that. I was not there at the time.

Q How long have you been in connection with the detective service in Chicago?

A On the force three years and a half; have been dong detective work two years and a half.

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