Haymarket Affair Digital Collection

Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Testimony of Louis Haas (second appearance), 1886 July 27.

Volume K, 258-284, 27 p.
Haas, Louis.
Police Officer, Chicago Police Department.

Direct and re-direct examination by Mr. Grinnell. Cross-examination by Captain Black. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois.

Attended the Haymarket meeting. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): "Attention Workingmen" flier (vol.K 268), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.K 267), McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.K 260), position of the defendants and others on the speakers' wagon (vol.K 269), actions of police during the Haymarket meeting (vol.K 259), Captain Ward's command to disperse (vol.K 263), Fielden's response to the police advance at Haymarket (vol.K 262), trajectory of the bomb (vol.K 263), the explosion (vol.K 265), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.K 265), Degan, Mathias (vol.K 279), medical care and wounds (vol.K 572), Spies, August (vol.K 266), Spies' speech at Haymarket (vol.K 260), Parsons, Albert (vol.K 261), Fielden, Samuel (vol.K 266), Fielden's speech at Haymarket (vol.K 261), Schnaubelt, Rudolph (vol.K 266), (vol.K 275), attendance of women and children at labor meetings and rallies (vol.K 276).

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LOUIS HAAS, a witness called on the part of the prosecution, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. Grinnell: (Q) What is your name?

A Louis Haas.

Q You are a police officer?

A I am.

Q You belong to the detective force?

A Yes, sir.

Q At the central station?

A Yes sir.

Q Were you at the haymarket meeting on May 4th,?

A I was.

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Q What time did you arrive there?

A About half past six at the Desplaines Street Station, and at the meeting on the street about seven o'clock.

Q When you got up onto the street, what did you do, about seven o'clock?

A Well, we went up Randolph Street, and we went up as far as Halsted Street on one side of the street and came back on the other; and remained at the corner of Union and Randolph Street the longest. There was quite a large crowd at all the corners at that time, and we stayed there and mixed in with the crowd to see what was going on.

Q Do you know whether any notice was given to the crowd by any person as to where the meeting was to be held?

A Well, I had seen bills and notices that there was to be a meeting on Haymarket Street.

Q That was on the Haymarket?

Q At the haymarket--Haymarket Street.

Q It was at the haymarket on Desplaines near the corner of Randolph?

A Yes sir.

Q And you were along the Haymarket Square, backward and forward?

A Yes sir.

Q The crowds seemed to gather and assemble at that square?

A They seemed to be looking where to go. They didn't seem to know where to go to.

Q You came back on Desplaines to the corner of Randolph?

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A Yes sir.

Q Did you see any of the defendants that night?

A Not at that time.

Q When did you see any of them?

A At that time the meeting had been going on Desplaines Street.

Q The meeting then was in progress when you first discovered the speaker?

A When I got back to the corner of Randolph and Desplaines then I see there was a meeting going on on Desplaines Street right in front of Crane Bros.

Q How near did you go to the wagon then?

A I went right up to the wagon.

Q Who was speaking?

A Spies was speaking then; at that time.

Q What did he then say?

A Well, he was talking about the troubles at McCormick's the day before. That he had been accused by McCormick of being the cause of the disturbance at the factory the day before. He also made the remark that the trouble only originated by a few boys and some leaving the meeting, throwing a few stones into the factory. He said that that was a lie, and some one in the audience then hollered out, "Hang him", or something to that effect. He then made the remark for them not to make any threats; that when they intended to do anything to go and do it and tell nobody about it. Something to that effect.

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Q How long did he speak---that is, how long did you hear him?

A Oh, I didn't hear him over ten or fifteen minutes; I then walked away.

Q Were you there when the next speaker began?

A I was there when Mr. Parsons was introduced. I didn't stay very long. I went around into the crowd on Randolph Street and came back after a while.

Q What did you hear Parsons say?

A Oh, I can't quote much of Parson's speech at all. There was some remarks made that I am not positive on.

Q You were circulating around then?

A Circulating around. I heard very little of Mr. Parsons' speech.

Q What was the temper of that crowd; how did they act?

A Well, they got very much excited; every once in a while somebody would holler out in the crowd "hang him", and cheer. It was more so on the east side of the street towards the wagon where they got the most excited at the time of this speech.

Q What time did you report back to the station? From time to time?

A I did not myself, no sir.

Q Did you hear Fielden speak?

A I did.

Q What did he say?

A He went on as regards to the law. He said the law was

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for the rich man but not for the poor man; and also in his remarks he also made these remarks: "Stab it; throttle it; stamp it".

Q Was there any police then in sight?

A At that time, no sir.

Q Well.

A He then went on to speak about some congressman, and I think the name was Forman, or something like that; that he wasn't doing any good at Congress for the benefit of the laborers' cause. And then towards the close of the meeting I turned around and seen the officers coming up the street; then, immediately, as the first company got across Randolph Street, north of Randolph, within ten or fifteen feet, I heard Fielden make this remark: "Here comes the blood-hounds now; men do your duty and I will do mine".

Q Now, where were the policemen--the front ranks of policemen, with reference to the car tracks on Randolph St. when you heard that remark?

A They were north of Randolph Street.

Q Where were you?

A I was then on the--pretty near the center of the street, more towards the west side of the street than the east, I should say.

Q Well, with reference to the wagon there?

A Well, I should say I was then within five or six feet of the wagon.

Q Did you see the police come?

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A I saw the police come up, yes.

Q Where did you go then?

A I went around to the west side, got onto the sidewalk, and got in between the second and third companies.

Q Were you there when---

A (Interrupting) The company was coming through that street and I had to go around with the company to get in back of it.

Q When you got there did you hear Ward or Bonfield say anything?

A I heard Captain Ward say: "I command you in the name of the People of the State of Illinois to disperse. "You and you" (Pointing with finger) and that is as far as I--as he got.

Q Did you hear Fielden make any remarks?

A Well, there was some remark made by Fielden but I can't tell now what the remark was: I had got around in further back.

Q Did you see Fielden?

A I saw Fielden, yes.

Q Did you see the bomb?

A Yes, I saw what I found afterwards was the bomb.

Q Did you see it in the air?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you know what it was or know where it came from?

A It came from the east side of Desplaines Street, I should say, between maybe five or six feet from the corner of the alley; south of the corner.

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Q In the corner and south of it?

A South of the corner--south of the alley. There was quite a number of boxes piled up on the sidewalk.

Q South of the alley?

A South of the alley; and from the direction I saw the bomb come I should say it was half way between the alley and the boxes.

Q In reference to that alley where did it strike the street?

A It struck the street--well, I can't---it came right--well, I should---

Q (Interrupting) Well, here is the map; point it out on that.

A I can explain it more on the map than I can--

Q Very well, explain it on the map. How did it appear to you where it went. That is sufficient.

Mr. Salomon: Point and show where you stood at the same time.

Q (Showing) Here is the wagon, so it was right in here, this side.

Q Just give a description so the reporters can get it. Say north of the alley, etc.

A Here is the wagon; here is where it stood.

Mr. Grinnell: (Q) What is it; right in the middle of the street.

A In the middle of the street, more to the west side of the street.

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Q Opposite the wagon?

A Opposite the wagon; a little north of the wagon.

Mr. Salomon: South of the wagon, you mean?

A Yes sir.

Mr. Grinnell: (Q) That is, you mean when the bomb was thrown?

A Yes sir; the bomb came right across in front of me. It struck right in there (showing) right ahead of me.

Q So, in your estimation, your position right after it struck would be south of the south line of the alley?

A Yes.

Q A little south of that; about somewhere in the vicinity of the middle of the street;

A In the middle of the street. It might have been a little more to the west than in the middle of the street.

Q What was the effect on the police?

A At that moment there was quite a report from the explosion; the center of the street was all covered with smoke at that time; as it cleared away it seemed that this second company was all on the ground at that time.

Q In reference to the explosion of the bomb, when did the firing begin?

A There was firing from the west side of the street almost at the same time this explosion occurred.

Mr. Black: (Q) From which side of the street?

A From the west--from the east side of the street towards the wagon.

Mr. Grinnell: (Q) You may state as to the wagon; you mean from where the wagon was?

A On the east side.

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Q Had the police fired before the bomb exploded?

A No sir, they had not.

Q After the bomb exploded, did the police fire before the crowd?

A There were shots fired from the east side of the street where the wagon was before any shots were fired from the police.

Q Do you know any of the defendants?

A I know some of the defendants.

Q Well, who did you see of the defendants there that night?

A I saw Mr. Spies, Mr. Parsons and Mr. Fielden.

Q Did you see Schnaubelt--the man they call Schnaubelt there that night?

A I did, on the wagon.

Q What time of the night was it that you saw him on the wagon?

A I think that he was on the wagon at the time Parsons was speaking. He was on the wagon at the time that Spies was closing.

Q Do you know whether you saw him on there when Fielden was speaking?

A I am not positive.

Cross Examination.

Mr. Black: (Q) How long have you been in the detective service?

A About six years, sir.

Q In that still?

A In that still, yes sir.

Q You were serving as a detective on the night of the haymarket meeting, were you not?

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A I was serving as a police officer.

Q. Yes, but you were doing detective service in citizens' clothes, were you not?

A Yes sir.

Q And attended this meeting, mingling with the crowd in and out?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you see any of the circulars calling for the meeting in advance of the meeting itself?

A Yes sir.

Q Where did you see those circulars?

A Oh, in advance of the meeting.

Q Yes.

A No sir; I think I seen a circular on the evening of the meeting. They were scattered around.

Q But I mean did you see them before you attended the meeting itself?

A No sir; I did not. I saw a notice in the Arbeiter Zeitung office; it was shown me in the afternoon.

Q Where was the first of these circulars that you ever saw?

A I think it was at the meeting.

Q At the meeting?

A yes sir.

Q Was it at that meeting in the street; were there notices there?

A Well, I wouldn't be positive about it, whether they were on the street or not.

Q Before?

A Well, I couldn't be positive now about that or in regard to that. If you want to know how my first attention was called to the meeting I will tell you from

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where I got it. I got it from the Arbeiter Zeitung in the afternoon. At the station I was sent out to get it--the Arbeiter Zeitung--containing the announcement of the meeting. I have that still.

Q That was before the meeting?

A Before the meeting, yes.

Q You say you still have that?

A Yes sir.

Q Have you that now?

A I have it at the station; I will bring it over.

Q (Presenting paper) Will you look at a copy of this circular and tell me whether this is a copy of the circular that you referred to?

A Well, I think that is another circular.

Q Are you referring to the revenge circular?

A No, not to the revenge circular; this looks similar to the one I seen.

The Court: (Q) Which part, the English or German; in which language,?

A Well, they were both in English. There was German and English in the same circular.

Mr. Black: In the call for the meeting, as well as in the revenge circular, both English and German were used. The call for the last meeting.

Q What hour in the afternoon did you reach the locality of this meeting?

A I didn't reach it until evening, about half past six.

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Q And you remained there until the explosion--after the explosion of the bomb?

A I remained there most all of that night.

Q Now, how much of the speaking that occurred there that evening did you hear?

A I didn't hear but very little of the speeches; of Mr. Spies and Mr. Parsons hardly anything at all, as I went back on Desplaines Street and on Randolph Street and walked around with the crowd.

Q But you did hear the most of Fielden's speech, did you?

A Well, I heard the most of it, yes.

Q Now, what was your location at the close of Mr. Fielden's speech, or after it was coming to an end?

A It was on this (showing) a little towards the west, and a little towards the wagon.

Q How far away from it?

A I should suppose 6 or 8 feet.

Q How many people were in and about that wagon and within a radius of the same--in or about?

A Well, there was about five or six hundred there then. In the early part of the evening there was about nine hundred or a thousand people there, I should judge.

Q Your impression would be that at that time about one half of the crowd that was at the meeting had dispersed?

A Well, there might have been. There wasn't quite so many there.

Q I understood you to say that there was about five or

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six hundred then, and there was about nine hundred or a thousand prior to that?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, in your judgment you would say there was about one half of the people gone away at the time the police reached the scene of action?

A There might have been about one third gone away.

Q About one third?

A Yes sir.

Q How long was it before the police reached the scene of action and came to a halt that you heard this remark of Fielden's that you have testified of?

A Oh, they came to a halt but a very short time before that. The first company came up-- they marched right up in our front and stood about ten feet, I should judge, from the wagon; it was a very few moments.

Q It may be a matter of importance, so I want to know how long it was before the first division came to a halt right there, close at the wagon, that this remark that you heard as spoken by Fielden was heard by you?

A Well, it was maybe a minute or two.

Q Well, it might have been two or three minutes or half a minute?

A Well, they were right close coming up on the street.

Q Let us get at it in another way. Did Fielden go on speaking after he made that remark?

A He was speaking at the time the officers came to a halt. They were coming up

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on the other side of the street.

Q What did he say after making that remark?

A Our company came right up on the west side of the street and I went away--I went back of the same company.

Q Now, do you say, Mr. Haas, that he made that remark, here come the bloodhounds of police now; men do your duty and I will do mine?

A About that.

Q Well, if there was a minute intervening there was enough time for him to say, here come the bloodhounds now; men do your duty and I will do mine?

A Yes sir.

Q Did he say anything after he had made that remark that you have testified of and before Captain Ward gave his order for the dispersal of the meeting?

A He had made some--he had spoken some sentences, or was still speaking at that time when the company came up.

Q Can you tell me what that sentence was?

A I cannot.

Q Can you tell me what it purported?

A No sir.

Q Did you notice any portion of it so as to be able to say more than that part of that sentence, here come the bloodhounds of police now; men do your duty and I will do mine?

A Yes, there was something said; the company came up and came to a halt. The minute they came to a halt I started away and I can't say that I heard anything more.

Q Now, you were standing there at the time the police came up and heard that remark?

A Yes sir.

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Q How far from the police were you at the time that Fielden made that remark?

A Well, they were about eight or ten feet away.

Q In what tone of voice was that remark made?

A Well, he made that remark, here come the bloodhounds--something to that effect--men do your duty and I will do mine--we will do mine--I will do mine; that was the remark.

Q Now, tell me again what tone of voice was that spoken in?

A In-well, I should say it was in an excited tone of voice at that time.

Q And a loud tone too?

A Yes, so I could hear it, and everybody else around there could hear it too.

Q Loud enough so you could hear it and everybody? else around there could hear it too?

A Yes, as close as I was to them.

Q Now, do you think that people further away from you could have heard it if they had been listening?

A Oh, well, at that time there was a little more people on the move; the police were coming up and there was quite a number moving out both sides the street. There was quite a number that was near me moved away at that time.

Q Had the announcement been made by Captain Ward at that time?

A No sir.

Q This then was before Captain Ward had said anything?

A Yes sir.

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Q How long before Captain Ward made his announcement was this utterance of Fielden's?

A Well, it might have been half a minute or a minute.

Q Half a minute or a minute?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you think that in the tone of voice in which Fielden uttered those words he could have been heard across the alley and ten or fifteen feet down on the sidewalk to the south?

A To the south?

Q Yes sir.

A Oh, I think he could have been heard some distance.

Q You think he could have been heard some distance?

A Yes sir.

Q Well, then, he made it in a loud tone of voice, did he?

A He made it in the ordinary tone of voice that he spoke in in the evening.

Q Fielden is a man that speaks in a pretty loud tone of voice when he gets excited?

A Yes sir.

Q He was excited when he made this remark?

A Yes sir.

Q He spoke in a loud tone of voice then?

A Yes sir.

Q He is a man of very distinct enunciation?

A Yes sir.

Q You heard the remark when he made it?

A Yes sir.

Q Did the remark when he made it make any impression on you mind?

A Not at that time; no sir.

Q Not at that time?

A No sir; of course as he made the remark, here come the bloodhounds, I was counted as one.

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of the bloodhounds.

Q It impressed you a little as having some relation to you?

A Yes, I being engaged with the police, of course.

Q When did you first mention to any person the fact that you had heard this remark coming from Mr. Fielden?

A Oh, I made it soon after the shooting; the next day or the day after that.

Q Can you tell me to whom you first mentioned it?

A Oh, I mentioned it in the station to a number of officers there.

Q And when was that?

A That was within a day or so afterwards.

Q Do you remember whether you mentioned it to Lieut. Quinn?

A I did not. I never spoke to Lieut. Quinn.

Q You never spoke to Lieut. Quinn? Can you tell me any of the police officers to whom you did mention it?

A Oh, yes, I did mention it to Quinn, part of it.

Q Name each one?

A Lieut. Shea.

Q He is a detective?

A Yes sir, Mr. Bonfield, another detective connected with our office.

Q Mr. James Bonfield, or detective Bonfield?

A Yes sir.

Q Mr. Rowan, one of the detectives and also my partner; Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Myers, and all the other officers in the station.

Q Now, when you say officers in the station you mean detective officers in the station?

A Yes sir.

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Q Those officers that you have mentioned are all of them officers detailed from the central station, are they not?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, can you tell me when you first made that statement to them, or to any of them, definitely?

A That was made, I think the next day after the shooting.

Q The next day?

A I wouldn't be positive; it might have been the day after.

Q By the way, do you know Schnaubelt?

A I examined-I see Mr. Schnaubelt in the Arbeiter Zeitung office the next day, and he was pointed out to me as the brother-in-law of Mr. Schwab.

Q That was the first time you had ever seen him to know him, was it?

A I saw the same man on the wagon the night before.

Q Answer the question; The question is whether on this occasion in the Arbeiter Zeitung office on the fifth of May, was the first time that you ever saw Schnaubelt to know him?

A Yes sir.

Q He was then pointed out to you?

A Yes sir.

Q You think the latest that you can fix definitely when you first saw Schnaubelt was when Fielden was along about the close of his speech?

A Along about the close and the announcement of Mr. Parsons.

Q You didn't see him before, did you?

A I did not.

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Q Did you see when he went away which direction he took?

A No sir; I went off while Mr. Parsons was speaking.

Q You got back there in, you should think, half an hour, didn't you?

A I went around with the crowd on both sides of it.

Q You got around on the north side of the wagon, didn't you?

A I was on the north side of the wagon.

Q Were you there more than once during that evening?

A On the north side of the wagon?

Q Yes sir.

A I was around there.

Q You observed the wagon that stood north of the speakers' wagon?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you notice who was on that wagon during that evening?

A I think there was some ladies on that wagon. I think two ladies.

Q Did you notice whether there was any children there?

A That I don't recollect.

Q Did you recognize either of the ladies, or did you find out who they were either by inquiry or otherwise?

A I didn't inquire.

Q Are those the only persons that you remember facing to the north of the wagon---that is, north of the speakers' wagon?

A Well, there might have been some others standing around there, or some others on the wagon.

Q At what hour was it that you noticed the ladies on the

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wagon to the north of the speakers' wagon?

A This meeting commenced about half past eight or a little after eight; it might have been about nine o'clock or half past nine o'clock, the different times that I had been around--the number of times.

Q Now, Mr. Haas, when you left your station near the wagon where you say you heard this remark from Fielden, did you leave before or after Captain Ward commenced his announcement to the crowd?

A I had got around on the side moving away. I got pretty near on to the sidewalk on the west side of the street as Captain Ward made these remarks. I comman---

Q (Interrupting) You were then moving when Captain Ward made his announcement?

A Yes sir.

Q And had gotten nearly to the sidewalk?

A I was just about going onto the sidewalk, I judge. I got onto the sidewalk and had got around to the back of the second company when he was making this remark.

Q What was your position with reference to the second line of police at the time Captain Ward began speaking?

A I had got off the sidewalk to go around to the second cordon of police, between the second and third company; I was between the second and third company.

Q Now, how far back had you got when Ward commenced to speak?

A Oh, I had got maybe fifteen or twenty feet.

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Q You passed along the sidewalk in front, or near the front of the first division of police?

A Yes sir.

Q Then you passed around to the second division, didn't you?

A Yes sir.

Q And passed onto the street again?

A Yes sir.

Q How far into the second division had you got when the bomb exploded?

A Oh, I had got maybe six or eight feet off the sidewalk.

Q And where, with reference to where you stood, was the bomb when it exploded?

A Well, I can explain it on the map here.

Q What I want to get at is with reference to where you stood.

The Court: It will be clearer if you tell with reference to the points of the compass.

A I should say I was about eight or ten feet from the bomb at the time it exploded.

Mr. Black: (Q) Which, eight or ten feet?

A It may have been eight feet, it may have been seven feet, I should say ten feet.

Q The line of police was then to your front?

A Yes sir.

Q In what direction was the bomb immediately at the time of the explosion?

A At the time of the explosion it was almost in front, north of me.

Q You had passed around so that you were in the rear of

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the second division when it exploded?

A. Yes sir.

Q. How near do you think you were to the sidewalk at that time?

A. Oh, I might have been six or eight feet from the sidewalk west, and maybe eight feet from the bomb in front of me.

Q. Your impression then would be that the bomb exploded within six or eight feet, or some such matter, of the curb of the street, would it?

A. Along about that; but it might have been eight or ten feet from the curb of the street.

Q. And near due north from where you were standing at the moment?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Now Mr. Haas, you were a witness at the coroner's inquest held in reference to the death of Mathias Degan, were you not?

A. I was.

Q. Did you in your testimony on that day say anything whatever about this alleged remark of Fielden's?

A. I did not.

Q. After the bomb exploded, did you hear any shots fired?

A. I heard shots fired from the east -- from the west side of the street.

Q. Well now, east or west, which?

A. On the west side of the street near the wagon -- on the east side of the street near the wagon.

Q. Now, are you sure of that as to which side it was;

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whether it was east or west?

A. Well, I mean on the east side of the street near that alley, close to the wagon.

Q. Are you sure that you heard any shots fired before the police opened fire?

A. I am sure.

Q. Before the police opened fire?

A. Yes sir.

Q. How long is it that you have been certain of shots from that east sidewalk, or from the neighborhood of that alley, before the police opened fire?

A. From the very night, before half an hour after it occurred, after I got away from where the shooting was.

Q. You were absolutely certain of that fact then at the time that you testified before the coroner's jury, were you not?

A. Yes sir, I was.

Q. Did you not, in your testimony before the coroner's jury upon that point say in effect that you thought you heard shots fired from the east of you, but you were not sure as to that?

A. I don't recollect making that statement.

Q. My question is if you did make that statment upon that point?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Will you swear that you did not?

A. I will.

Q. You will swear that you did not?

A. I will swear that I didn't make that statement, yes.

Q. Before the coroner's jury?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You signed your statement after it was given, didn't you?

A. I signed the testimony, yes.

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Q. And after it had been written out?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then I will ask you -- I will say simply that the copy of the testimony which I hold in my hand reads as follows: "I think I heard some shots fired from the east of me; I am not sure."

A. I am pretty certain that my testimony was as I have given it here.

Q. "That was in the direction of where the boxes were:" Now, the boxes were simply to the south of the alley, were they not?

A. Well, I should say the shots now --

Q. (Interrupting) Yes, you said the alley?

A. Yes sir.

Q. What do you want to say further?

A. I mean to say from the east side of the street between the boxes and the wagon.

MR. FOSTER: The question was where they were.

MR. BLACK: Q. Where were the boxes that night?

A. I should say the boxes were about eight to ten feet from the alley to the south.

Q. Eight to ten feet south of the alley?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Now, according to your best recollection, were those shots in the neighborhood of the boxes, or were they from the neighborhood of the alley?

A. I should say they were fired from between the boxes and the wagon. I couldn't tell exactly where they were fired.

Q. And you are now absolutely certain, I understand you, and have been ever since that night that you did hear shots from the east side in the neighborhood of the boxes, before

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the police opened fire at all?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You are as certain of that as you are of anything that you have testified to?

A. I am certain.

Q. Are you just as certain that you heard this remark made by Fielden that you have testified to as anything else that you have sworn to here upon the stand?

A. I am certain that I heard that remark as I have testified to it here.

Q. And that remark, as I understand, was made by Fielden in an excited, loud tone of voice so that you are certain it could have been heard a distance of ten or fifteen feet down the alley; south of the alley?

A. I don't know how well anybody else could hear it, I know I heard it.

Q. You heard it distinctly?

A. Yes sir.

Q. (Presenting paper) That is your signature, is it not?

A. That is my signature.

Q. You swore to that after it was written down, didn't you? Signed it and swore to it?

A. I was sworn before, I believe.

Q. Before it was written down; and then you signed it?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Now in reading from this I will ask you whether or not on that examination if you did not use the following langiage: "I think I heard some shots fired from the east of me; I am

[Image, Volume K, Page 283]

not sure. That was in the direction of where the boxes were."# Now, did you so state at the coroner's inquest?

A. I don't think I did. I don't think that statement was read to me before I signed it.

Q. Are you in the habit of signing statements without reading them over? Sworn statements; statements purporting to be given under oath?

A. That testimony was taken right at the coroner's inquest in the room and I signed it. There was others there, several of them.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. There were others there signing their depositions?

A. Yes sir.

MR. BLACK Q. Wasn't this testimony read over to you then and there before you signed it?

A. I don't think it was, sir.

Q. Will you swear that it was not?

A. To my best knowledge and belief now I don't think it was. I will swear that.

Q. The question is whether it was or not, and I understand you to say to the best of your knowledge and belief it was not?

A. Yes sir.

Q. The coroner's inquest that we have been speaking of was the coroner's inquest held in reference to the death of Mathias J. Degan?

A. Yes; in the County Clerk's office.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. In the City Clerk's Office?

A. Yes sir.

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MR. BLACK: Q. In the City Clerk's office?

A. Yes sir.

Q. In the City Hall Building on La Salle Street?

A. Yes sir

Q. In the City of Chicago?

A. Yes sir.

Q. On the 5th of May?

A On the next day after the --

Q. After the explosion of the bomb?

A. Yes sir.


MR. GRINNELL: Q. Do you remember the day of the taking of this? (Referring to the deposition of the witness before the coroner.)

A. I think it was on the 5th of August.

MR. BLACK: The 5th of May

A. Or of May.

(Insert English & Thompson)

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