Haymarket Affair Digital Collection

Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Testimony of Maxwell E. Dickson, 1886 July 26.

Volume K, 104-132, 29 p.
Dickson, Maxwell E.
Former newspaper reporter.

Direct examination by Mr. Grinnell. Cross-examination by Captain Black. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois.

Attended the Haymarket meeting. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): weapons and explosives (vol.K 117), socialists and/or socialism (vol.K 104), anarchists and/or anarchism (vol.K 112, plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.K 106), advocating revolution (vol.K 106), call for workingmen to arm themselves (vol.K 131), the Alarm (vol.K 104), Lake Front meetings (vol.K 129), Thanksgiving 1885 Market Square meeting (vol.K 113), religion (Judaism) (vol.K 109), Spies, August (vol.K 110), Parsons, Albert (vol.K 104), Schwab, Michael (vol.K 111), Fielden, Samuel (vol.K 109).

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MAXWELL E% DICKSOn, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the people, was examined in chief by Mr. GRINELL, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name?

A. Maxwell E. Dickson.

Q. You were formerly a newspaper reporter?

A. I was.

Q. You are not now employed in that business?

A. No sir.

Q. Do you know any of the defendants?

A. I know Mr. Spies, I know Mr. Parsons, I know Mr. Fielden and Mr. Schwab.

In fact I know a number of the others. I know Mr. Neebe. Those are all the gentlemen I have been introduced to.

Q. Do you remember of having any conversation with Parsons specially in reference to street warfare?

A. Not exactly in that way, no sir. I did have a number of conversations at different times with Mr. Parsons, that is they were personal conversations, in regard to the socialistic movement, and generally. Mr. Parsons had copies of the Alarm in his hands or some other papers having reference to this very movement. I remember the last time I met Mr. Parsons when he gave me a paper, I think he gave me two or thee papers, the last time I met him was either the latter part of last year

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or the commencement of this year, and in that paper there was either one or two diagrams, I won't be certain now.

Mr. BLACK. You need not state the contents of the paper

THE WITNESS. This paper represented a square, the formation-----

Mr. BLACk. Never mind.


Q. Look at that paper Mr. Dickson.

A. I would not swear that it was a copy of this paper, or some other, but it was a diagram similar to this paper here.

Q. The diagram that you did see in the paper was similar in character to the two diagrams you saw here?

A, One paper that he gave me at that time was of the date of that week, and this paper was with it.

Q. The paper that had the diagrams of the street warfare.

Mr. BLAck. Wait a minute.

Mr. GRINNELL. He says the paper was of the week he had the conversation.

A. Mr parsons gave the last publication. The conversation was entirely of a rather warm and friendly nature, but Mr. parsons handed me these papers. I thought nothing of it until I came to the office. I did not look at it at the time, except something Mr. Parsons specially pointed out to me in the last issue. When I went to the office I noticed in

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this other paper he gave me a plan of warfare. I looked it over and handed it to Mr. Magee, and threw it on the desk. That is all I know of that.

Q. Did you have any conversation with Parsons on that subject?

A. I had a conversation with Parsons on that subject% He did not open this at the time. Mr. Parsons stated to me as near as I can remember------

Mr. BLACK. Let this go in subject to objection as to the other defendants other than Parsons.

Mr. GRINNELL. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS. Mr. Parsons said to me that they had --- he stated that the social revolution would be brought in that way, the paper would describe, that is the description of this paper I did not pay much attention to it at the time, except when I got to the office I opened the paper to see that description.

Q. Was anything said in that conversation, or any other in regard to the social revolution, as to what forces it was to be brought against.

A. I met Mr. Parsons sometime during the past winter, in fact I think it was in November last.

It was either the day of that demonstration on the Market Square or later on, I think though it was later than that. I remarked to him in sort of a joking way, I says "You are not going to blow anybody up are you?" He said "You will see." I said "You don't mean you are going to use dynamite?" He said

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"I do not say that we wont. I don't know that we won't, but you will see the revolution brought about, and sooner than you think for." Well, we had several conversations somewhat of that tenor.

Q. Did you attend any meetings at which any of these defendants spoke?

A. I attended a number of meetings% I attended pretty much all of them up to within two years ago. Since a year ago i attended very few.

Q. Begin with the order of meetings you attended?

Mr. FOSTER. The time that Mr. Parsons was born, if you can.

THE WITNESS. I might go back to the Flood if you so desire.

Mr% GRINNELL. You have attended meetings at which you heard these people?

A. I attended meetings since 1875. I desire to ay that the last meeting I attended was the one on Market Square November last, and the ones previous to that was on January 11th 1885, one on January 18th 1885.

The one on January 11th was held in the West 12th Street Turner Hall, and the other in Mueller's Hall, corner Sedgewick and North Avenue., After that in the summer time I attended a number of meetings on the Lake Front. I kept no note of them because there was no reports made of them, and I paid no particular attention.

Q. State as near as you can what was said, take each individuals

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name, take the 12th Street Turner Hall meeting.

Objected to. Objection overruled and exception noted.

A. The 12th Street Turner Hall meeting was a meeting called for the purpose, as I remember it, of discussing the Socialistic Platform, or in other words, Socialism; and there had been a circular issued in which public men, clergymen and Lawyers and others who were interested in the socialistic quesytion, were invited to be present to discuss the question with the leaders of the social movement who would speak there. My recollection is that the Hall was very well crowded. There was not any standing room there scarcely, and that a gentleman named Griffin presided at the meeting, S% C% Griffin. I would like from these notes to refresh my memory.

MR% GRINNELL. Refresh your memory by reading them.

THE WITNES: (Continuing) Mr. Parsons, after Mr. Griffin had spoken, Mr. Parsons stepped forward and made a speech in which he said that the Editors of the Capitalistic press, Clergymen, Lawyers, Publicists, and Capitalists had been invited to discuss the questions there, and during his remarks he said that the degradation of labor was brought about by what was known as the rights of private poperty, and he there quoted some statistics, a long line of them, in which he showed that an average man with a Capital of $5000 a year, was enabled to make $4000 a year, and thus get rich, while his employe who made money for him obtained but $304 and there was upwards

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of two million heads of families who were in want, or who were bordering on want, and who were making their living either by theft, robbery, or any such occupation as they could get work in. And he said, that while they were champions of free speeech, and social order, it would be hard for the man who stood in the way of liberty, fraternity and equality to all.

Then at that time Mr. Griffin invited any outsiders who were present to speak, and called for the Reverend Mr. Green, who was not present. And Mr. Fielden was the next spokesman. And he, in his speech, in a general way, he said men were starving because of the over production.

Q. Do you mean that the Reverend gentleman spoke?

A. No the Reverend gentleman made no response, because he was not present.

Mr. BLACK. You are now giving what Mr. Fielden said?

A. Yes sir, then Fielden was introduced and spoke and said that the majority of men were starving because of over production, and the cause of that over production he figured out, showed that that ought not to be, and then went on to show that overcoats were being sent to Africa, to the Congo States to cover the nakedness there that was needed at home here, and he could not understand how that was. As a socialist he said that they believed in the equal rights of every man to live, but that the present condition of the laboring man was

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due to the domination of capital, and they could expect no remedy from the legislature or from the legislators, and that there were enough present in the Hall at that time to take Chicago from t e grasp of the Capitalists% Then others were again invited to come forward and speak, and them Mr. Fielden continued that Capital must divide with labor, that the time was coming when a contest would arise between Capital and labor, and socialism should be prepared for the result. He was no alarmist, but the contest would certainly come, and the socialist would be prepared for the victory when it did come.

Then after that there was an old gentleman named Taylor got up and made a speech. Then there were a number of others young men, tried to get up there and spoke, and there was a good deal of confusion created in the Hall, but Mr. Spies spoke in German, and somewhat in the tener of Mr. Fielden, and somewhat after the tenor of Mr. Parsons. His speech was simply a recapitulation, you might say, of all that had been said before; and he advised the workingmen to organize in order to obtain their rights, and that they might be prepared when the time came---- this is simply the substance of my recollection of the speech--- that they would be prepared for the emergency. Then there were resolutions adopted at that meeting, denouncing the capitalistic press, the editors and clergymen, and those who had refused to come for not coming to hear the truth spoken, and to discuss the question, etc. and the meeting

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Q. That is all.

A. Do you want anything of this other meeting at Muellers Hall?

THE COURT. Go on and give it.

Objected to and exception noted by defendants.

The WITNESS. At that meeting Mr. Fielden presided, and Mr. Griffin made a speech, in which he advocated the use of force to right social wrongs. Fielden presided at the meeting, and Griffin made the first speech in which he advocated the use of force to right social wrong; and there was a man named Lichtner who said he was in favor of socialistic ideas, underlying socialism, but opposed to the use of force.

Schwab in German said, that the gap between the rich and poor was growing wider; that although despotism in Russia had endeavored to crush Nihilism by executing some and sending others to Siberia, Nihilism was still growing. And he praised Reinsdorff, who had been recently executed in Europe, but stated that his death had been avenged by the killinf of Rumpf, the chief of Police of Frankfort, who had been industrious in endeavoring to crush out socialism; that murder was forced on may a man through the miserry brought on him by Capital; that such a thing as freedom in the United States was a farce or something to that effect, and that freedom in Illinois was literaally unknown; that both of the Political parties were corrupt, and what was nedded here was a bloody revolution which would

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right their wrongs. Then there was a man named Gorsuch---

q You understand German?

A Yes sir. Ich Spreche deutch.

q Schwab spoke in German?

A Yes sir% It was in the afternoon this meeting was held. Then there was a young man named Gorsuch. He was against all Government, because he believed in no government. That Government was made for slaves, and that the only way the working men could get their rights was by the Gatling Gun, by absolute barbaric force. He believed in the immediate use of brute force. Then Mr. Fielden called upon the capitalists to answer these arguments, and to save their property, for when they, the socialists decided to appropriate the property of the Capitalists, it would be too late for the capitalists to say anything. That was in English. Then Mr. Spies spoke in German at that meeting, and he advised the workingmen to revolt at once. He said that he had been accused of giving this advice before, and that it was true, and that he was proud of it.

Mr. BLACK. Q That is what Spies said%

A That is what Spies said. Mr. Spies spoke in German; he said that wage slavery could only be abolished through powder and ball.

He denounced the ballot as a sort of a skin game. He compared it to a deck of cards, in which there was a marked deck put in the place of the genuine, and in which the poor

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man got all the skin cards, so that when the dealer laid down the card his money was taken from him. Then Mr. Parsons spoke, and Spies offerred these resolutions, which were adopted----- if you care to hear these resolutions. They relate to the taking away of Mr. Rumpf.

Mr. GRINNELL. Let us have them.

THE WITNESS: "Whereas our comrades in Germany have slain one of the dirtiest dogs of his Majesty Lehmann, the greatest disgrace of the present time--- namely the spy Rumpf:

RESOLVED: that we rejoice over and applaud the noble and heroic act."

Then Mr. Parsons offerrd some resolutions in which the abolition of the present social system was advocated, and favored a new social co-operative system that would bring about an equality between capital and labor, as he argued. After that the meeting adjourned. Then the next meeting I attended was on the Market Square on Thanksgiving day, and Mr. Parsons, I think Mr. Spies presided at that meeting---- I am not so sure about that--- but at any rate Mr. Parsons made a speech there Thanksgiving day meeting, and Mr. Spies also I think spoke there, and I think Mrs. Parsons. In the speech there Mr. Parsons wanted to ask enquiringly, what they had to be thankful for, whether it was for their poverty, their lack of having sufficient food and clothing; etc, and also argued that the

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Capitalists on the Avenue spent more money at one meal for wine than some of them received for pay in a month; and I think, I wont be so sure, that Mr. Fielden also made a speech there in which he said that they would be justified in going over to Marshall Field over the way, and taking out from there that which belonged to them. There were a series of resolutions adopted there, denouncing the President, I believe they were offerred by Mr. Parsons, for having set apart Thanksgiving day; that it was a fallacy and a fraud; that the workingmen had nothing to be thankful for; that only a few obtained the riches that were produced, while the many had to starve. That is in substance the resolutons as I remember them.

By Mr. Black.

Q Thanksgiving day of what year?

A. This last meeting was 1885.

MR. SALOMON. I move to exclude the evidence given by this witness%

The Court overruled this motion, to which ruling of the Court Counsel for the Defendants then and there excepted.

MR% BLACK. You have spoken of a conversation you had with parsons in which he stated to you that the social revolution was coming sooner than you would expect.

A Yes, he said to me more than once, I think I will remember that%

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Q Did he ever state to you what he meant by the expression, social revolution, or the social revolution?

A. Well, I can't say exactly that he did. What he did say to me, Capt. Black, was this: That when the social revolution came, it would be better for all men; that it would place every man on an equality. He pictured me personally as a wage slave, just as much under the control of the capitalist as the laborer who was working with the anvil.

q Referring to your position as a Newspaper Reporter?

A Yes sir, at the time% And then he said that all reforms had to be brought about through revolutions, and that bloodshed could not be avoided. I did not put that at any particular date, because those were frequently the statements he would make to me.

Q These were the discussions that Mr. Parsons had with you, or that you had between you in reference to this theme which you understood was Parsons Hobby, were not they?

A I cannot say that they were discussions. I was frequently with Mr. Parsons, and in fact with all these people-- we used to meet every day, and would talk about what they were doing.

Q That is what I mean by discussions---- I don't mean necessarilly disputes.

A No, I never had any disputes with with any of these people.

Q They were conversations in which in a friendly way, the

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social and industrial outlook of the Country was talked over, and in which Parsons was in the habit of taking the pessimistic view that revolution was inevitable, and that revolution came in the way of bloodshed.

A Yes sir, and then also he would frequently insist that any method would be justifiable so that it was brought about.

Q Any method he considered would be a proper method to accomplish this revolution?

A. Yes sir.

Q. When it came?

A. Yes, sir.

Q That is to say, to accomplish the object which he advocated as the intended result of the social revolution?

A Certainly% I also asked him if they intended to use dynamite.

Q Can you tell any conversation in which you asked him that question, any particular conversation?

A I think I asked it in July or June last, that he and I had a conversation of that character.

Q Where was that conversation, if you remember?

A Well it was in the vicinity of the Times office.

Q. On the street?

A. I think it was near the office - I would be too sure.

Q. On the street?

A It was on Fifth Avenue between Madison amd Washington Streets.

Q What I mean is, it was on the street?

A Yes sir.

Q That you met and talked with him

A Wherever we met we talked about it

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Q. In that conversation you asked him if he proposed to use dynamite?

A I did.

Qn What was his response to that?

A His response was that if it became necessary, that they would use it--that at was exactly his response, and it might become necessary.

qQ Might become necessary?

A Yes sir.

Q There was not in that conversation nor in any conversation you ever had with him, any distinct declaration of any proposal on his part, or the part of those associated with him to inaugurate the revolution at any particular time, or by any particular means, or the use of any particular force?

A No sir, he never said to me that they would inaugurate the revolution at any pqrticular time but he said to me very frequently that they would bring on the revolution,

Q But never mentioned as to the time?

A. No sir.

Q Simply spoke of it as the inevitable future?

A Yes sir, he said it was bound to come, and come sooner than expected.

Q You have heard a great many people express substantially the same idea, I suppose?

Objected to. Objection sustained.

Exeption taken by Defendants.

Q You say on one occasion Parsons showed you a copy of the Alarm, or was that on two different occasions?

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A Let me understand% When I made that remark--- Mr Parsons I met frequently, as you understand% Whenever I met him if he had a new edition of the paper in his pocket, he handed me the paper, and asked me to look at it. At this time he handed me the 1 st edition of the paper, and I think he remembers it himself, and also a paper, I would not swear particularly that it was the Alarm that he gave me, but it was a copy of the paper that had this plan of street warfare in it.

Q You do not know whether it was a copy of the Alarm or a copy of some other paper?

A I would not like to swear it was the Alarm.

Q Do you remember what he said as to the authorship of that article?

A He did not make any remark as to the authorship. He did not show me the article at all.

Q Did not he in that conversation tell you in effect that you would find in that paper an article, that it was an article by an officer of the United States Army, contributed to the San Francisco Truth, and republished in the Alarm?

A I could not say as to that, Captain, for I do not recollect whether he said that to me%

Q Did you subsequently examine the article?

A. Yes sir, I read thr article.

Q Did you find that it wa an article ori inally contributed by an Officer of the United States Army or Navy to the San

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Francisco Truth, and republished in the Alarm?

A. I have not looked over the paper, I have seen that Paper that Mr. Grinnell handed me, but I have not looked at it since that afternoon.

Q You have not a distinct recollection now?

A. No Sir. I would not swear to that, but he handed me the paper I know that had been published some time previous, and called my attention to that article as showing what could be done.

Q. What was the date of this meeting at West 12th Street Turner Hall, that you have spoken of?

A That was January 11th.

Q. Of this past year?

A. Of 1885, yes.

Q. How did your attention come to be called to that meeting, January 1885?

A. I will tell you, I was sent there as a reporter.

Q From the Times?

A Yes sir.

Q. You were connected with the Times at that time?

A. Yes.

Q You were there to report that meeting?

A Yes sir, i was%

Q Do you know whether or not there was a general notice of that meeting published?

A It was a public meeting.

QA And you found the Hall full?

A It was absolutely packed, There was no standing room there scarcely.

Q A public discussion of the questions that were under

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consideration were invited there, was it not?

A A It was by a circular that I came to go there. The city editor handed me a circular, and told me to go and see what the meeting did, and to make a report of it.

Q You have stated in the course of the proceedings, of the meeting, persons were called upon by name to take part in the discussions, and they were not present?

A. Yes Sir.

Q Let me call your attention before passing finally from this question to this paper, which purports to be a copy of the Alarm, under date of July 25th 1885. I will ask you whether you recognize that as a copy of the Alarm?

A I recognize this as a copy of the Alarn. Yes.

Q Let me call your attention to an article on the third page there, under the title of "Street Fighting, how to meet the enemy. Some palpable hints for the revolutiobary soldier% What an officer of the U% S% Army has to Say." I will ask whether or not that is the article to which your attention was called by Mr. Parsons?

A To the best of my recollection it is, but if you ask me to swear positively whether it is or not, I would not like to.

Q Your bst recollection would be that is the article?

A Yes sir, so far as my memory serves me. I have had lots of copies of the Alarm.

Q. Do you remember whether or not the article to which your attention was called, and that you did read, and which I

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understand contained substantially the same diagram you recognize here?

A Yes, these diagrams I am positive of.

Q I will ask you whether that article, according to your recollection, commences in substance as follows:-

"The following letter was published some time ago in the San Francisco Truth, and will no doubt be read by friends of the Alarm with great interest" Do you remember that introductory sentence?

A I remember an introductory sentence to it, but I pledge my word outside of that, I did not pay enough attention to it% I read the article over and I handed the paper to Mr. Magee, City Editor who was in the office at the time, and I called his attention to it. And I said, "Look at that." And he looked at it.

Q You paid no further special attention to the subject?

A. No sir, I did not.

Q. You have given substantially, by the aid of your notes, your recollection as to what transpired at the 12th Street Turner Hall Meeting?

A. Yes sir.

Q Was there anything else occurred in one of the speeches there, that impressed itself on your recollection, so that you can detail it now outside of your notes?

A No I cannot say that there is, except, that after this Dr. Taylor had spoken, that Mr. Griffin invited others to speeak, and that some beardless youth, a young man stepped up there and tried to speak. He said that he was no socialist, and

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and that any man who was not too lazy to work could work, and find work to do; that there was no necessity for having Tramps and so on; that if a man was willing to work, there was no necessity for being a Tramp. This is from recollection of course, and he was hooted down, and there was a good deal of excitement and noise in the Hall. Mr. Spies got up in one corner of the meeting, of the stage, and asked them to be quiet, and to give every man a chance to be heard; that they wanted to hear from the other side; that if he was a capitalist it was all right. By the way, this young man said Capitalists would control labor anyway, or some words to that effect% After he got through somebody else got up to speak, and he had the appearance of being a Hebrew, and some of the crowd commenced to cry "Yut Jew" and another young man got up.

Mr% GRINNELL. What is the use of going over that?

MR% BLAVK. Let him go on. What else?

THE WITNESS. This otherman got up there and said that Karl Marx and La Salle were Jews, and so on, and that some of the leading socialists had been Jews. I do not know who that was now. Everything was confusion in the Hall at that time.

Q How long did that meeting last? Do you remember?

A% I should say three hours.

Q Was it in that meeting that Spies made the remark about

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the skin game, or was that at the Mueller Hall meeting?

A. No, I think that was the Mueller Hall meeting.

Q. You have given us as I understand now, substantially all that occurred at the 12th Street Turner Hall meeting, that you remember?

A There was more in a general way, there was a good deal more said.

Q All that impressed itself upon your recollection?

A Yo see, Captain, that I had been attending these meetings regularly up to that time, pretty regularly, and had got acquainted with these people people, and as a m tter of fact I didn't take much notice of what was going on, because they were generally one a repetition of the other.

Q You were perfectly familiar with that strain of talking? It was talk that you were perfectly familiar with?

A Ye sir.

Q Through how long a period of time?

A. Say from the fall of 1875.

Q Those were orderly meetings held in the city of Chicago right along?

A They were all orderly, some more disorderly than others, but the meetings themselves as generally conducted were always certainly peaceable, except the men got excited sometimes and obstreporous% Sometimes they might suggest the hanging of a reporter, or of a newspaper editor.

Q Did that ever happen at other meetings?

A Yes sir, that happened at Mc. Cormick's Hall, they started to throw us out of the window.

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Q. You reporters have to take life in your hands sometimes?

A Not always.

Q Sometimes?

A Sometimes, yes sir.

Q Let us come to th mueller' Hall meeting. Fielden you say presided at that meeting---- am I correct as to that?

A Yes sir, that is it. He presided.

Q You repeated something that Fielden said with reference to the capitalists, substantially, that they should speak them, or for ever hold their peace, as they would not have a chance after the revolution came. What was Fielden's manner when he made that remark?

A Fielden's manner when he got on the stage always was very exciteable. Fielden was about as hot as any man could get on the stage, and speak.

Q His remarks, as you have quoted them here, were, that if there were any capitalists that wanted to speak, they would have the opportunity, and they better avail themselves of it, because after the revolution came they would not have the chance.

A That was about it.

Q In other words, if they wanted to keep their property, they better take the chance.

A His manner was suggestive, as if he wanted to bring that idea, that the revolut on was coming pretty soon--- that his manner would indicate.

q You have recited what he stated there in substance?

A I think it is almost verbatim

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Q Can you recollect substantially, the German of what he said?

A No, that would be hard for me to do---- that is in substance. I was sitting there and reporting, and translating as he went along. I think before I went away from that meeting I refferred to him in regard to one or two of his remarks, whether I had him correct, and he said "Substantially correct."

Q His position in his talk, as you remember substantially was, that it was a game of Cards, where the cards were set against the poor man

A That is just about the substance of it.

Q That was the present condition of the present social order?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember having an interview with Mr. Parsons the day after the Mueller Hall meeting, on the street, near the city Hall, in reference to your report, or rather the report of that meeting which had been published that morning in the Times?

A Yes do recollect. I don't know whether it was the day after.

Q Very shortly after?

A It was within a few days aftter.

Q Do you remember whether or not Mr. Parsons took you to task a little, or remonstrated with you, claiming that in the report of Spies speech you had done him injustice, and said you ought not to do that?

A I don't think that he,

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did, though he may have for ought I know, because it is not a new thing for a man to be hauled over the coals for what he writes.

Q Especially when he has attempted to write an abstract of what somebody else says?

A That is it exactly. My recollection is that Mr. Parsons, after that meeting, or some other, told me that he had used mainly my report for his paper --- I think that was the meeting.

Q As to that particular meeting, particularly in what you had reported him as saying that he advocated revolt--- did he not call your attention to the fact that you had done Spies an injustice in the report you made of his speech.

a No sir, I do not recollect that. I think he made some criticism of it. He made sme criticism about somebody's address, that I had inadvertently done somebody----did not report him correctly. I think it was Spies, because Spies had hauled me over the coals for re-publishing the report, that is my report of it, now when I come to think of it.

Q The claim was that you had not correctly reported Spies' speech at that time?

A Yes, but what the incorrect part was I can't remember. I remember that part very distinctly.

Q Who was it, Mr% Dickson, that in any of these meetings yo have described, spoke of the need in Illinois, of a revolution?

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A. I did not say that. Mr. Schwab, I think, said there was no freedom in the United States, and more especially in Illinois--- that is the substance of it.

Q Do you remember any of them, in the course of any of these meetings, speaking in reference to the Industrial condition, and saying in effect, that what was needed in Illinois was a bloody revolution, or anything to that effect?

A I could not say that I ever heard any man say that, no sir, never said that in that way.

Q Didn't use that expression?

A No sir, not in meetimgs that I attended within the last two years.

Q Whenever the matter of revolution was talked of in any of these meetings, by any of these defendants, was it not in effeect this, that the speaker took the position that the industrial conditions now existing in society were tending to certain, and rapidly towards revolution as the sole and only relief to the industrial classes---- answer yes or no to that if you can?

A I will tell you, Captain Black, and without injustice either to you or the gentle en there, there was never anything of that kind put in that way at all--- the speakers generally --- I am speaking of any of the meetings--- the speakers generally advocated revolution.

Q When you say advocated revolution, you mean advocated the social revolution, that is, a change i social conditions%

A I will tell you---- of course I could go back and name on other men, and even some of the gentlemen here who have directly advocated the use of force and dynamite% There

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men spoke before these men in years gone by who were far more bloodthirsty%

Q I am not speaking of bloodthirsty men of long ago%

Your attention has been called to various meetings that have occurred since January 1885. Confine your attention to that period of time. Has not the position of the parties been substantially what I have indicated, and in their attack, they have spoken of the industrial conditions, and have predicted revolutions as the sole outcome of the industrial classes.

A Yes sir, and also advocated that same revolution, and that the working men should bring it about.

Q Can you give us the language of any one man that has stated that, an tell us when he stated it, and who it was that he stated it to%

A I will tell you, you know that these two meetings I have reference to were of a very peculiar character.

Q I aint asking you that?

A I am answering your question.

Q Can you tell me the time, the place, the person, and what was said in advocacy of revolution?

A Well, I have heard so many remarks.

Q Never mind about having heard so many remarks%

A I can't answer it by saying yes, and I can't answer it by saying

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no, because -----

Q Hold on.

THE COURT. That last question don't call for yes or no. It calls for time, place, and person, and any words advocating bloody revolution.

(The Stenographer here read the question)

THE COURT. Have you anything in your notes by which you can fix the time, place, and person, and the words?

MR% SALOMON. That question is answered by Yes or no.

THE WITNESS. I can't fix the time, but I can fix the place; on the Lake Front, in some of these meetings.

THE COURT: Literally that calls the witness to say yes or no, but the common understanding of the question "Can you tell me" means tell me if you can. Literally it can be answered yes or no.

THE WITNESS: It would be unjust to me to answer it yes or no.

Mr% BLACK. Q. The place you fix as being at the Lake Front meeting?

A Yes.

Q Now, the person?

A I want to qualify that% You asked me of course to go back. You understand, Captain Black that I did not take any notes of these meetings. Mr Fielden-

Q It seems when you did take notes and produced them here, those notes did not cover the ground which you now upon your examination attemp to cover.

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MR. GRINNELL: I confined myself to his notes.

MR% BLACK. I would not have been where I was if the Witness had confined himself to answer the question.

THE WITNESS: I don't want to volunteer anything.

MR% GRINNELL: Let him give them all, all the Lke Front meetings for the last five years.

Mr. BLACK. I know how to conduct this examination.

Q Fielden?

A I say this, Mr Fielden and Mr. Dusey, a man named Dusey.

Q Dusey is not one of the Defendants%

A Mr. Fielden at the Lake Front meetings, at meetings--- I will not fix the date because I wandered down there and met Parsons there, met Spies there---- I wandered down there-- Mr. Fielden advised the working men----

Q You have given me now the name of the person and place; Lake Front and Fielden---- what did he say? I want his language.

A I cannot give you the identical language.

Q Can you give the substance of his language on any particular occasion that you remember, not your general gleanings of your reportorial imaginations over a period of years, but sometime when he said something which impressed irdelf on your recollection, which you substantally can reproduce.

A The gleanings of my imagination are very scant at this late day%

q We will discuss that at some other time. I want your

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recollection of something that impressed itself upon your memory, if you can reproduce it in substance.

A Simply This --- Mr. Fielden did at the Lake Front there advise the men to go forward there and and get that which did belong to them and to do it by force. That was at the Lke Front.

Q When was the last time that you ever heard Fielden advise anything of that sort?

A I did not say that I heard him a dozen tims say that, but the last time I heard him say that.

Q In your last answer before this you have given as closely as you can, the substance of Fielden's advocacy of force?

A Mr. Fielden, when he started to speak would go through--

Q Mr. Dickson, that question can be answered yes, or no.

A I understand that, but you can't put a witness in the position that he is equivocated, and I do not propose to be put in that position.

Q You be careful on your side, and I will try to.

A I don't want to. I want to be candid with you.

Q The question I put to you is this: Have you given approximately the substance of Fielden's advocacy upon the subject referred to?

A Yes sir, in substance as far as that is concerned, the advocacy of force.

Q Now, hold on a minute. I did not ask you if the advocacy was force. I asked you if you had already given---I did not ask you to repeat it, but I will ask you once more,

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in your previous answr, not this last one, have you given approximately, and as closely as you could the substance of Foelden's advocacy of the subject under consideration?

A As far as I can%

Q Is your answer "as far as I can"

A. As far as I can recollect, certainly.

Mr. BLACK. That will do% We will stop right here.

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