Haymarket Affair Digital Collection

Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Testimony of Andrew C. Johnson (first appearance resumed), 1886 July 26.

Volume K, 1-34, 35 p.
Johnson, Andrew C.
Detective, Pinkerton National Detective Agency.

Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Re-direct examination by Mr. Grinnell. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. People's Exhibit 17 (vol.K 30) introduced into evidence. Detective, while working undercover became a member of the American Group of the International Workingmen's Association. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Most, Johann (vol.K 26), weapons and explosives (vol.K 14), socialists and/or socialism (vol.K 26), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.K 2), advocating revolution (vol.K 7), the Alarm (vol.K 30), McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.K 34), eight-hour movement (vol.K 9), Pinkerton National Detective Agency (vol.K 2), Lehr und Wehr Verein (vol.K 13), the American Group (vol.K 13), Spies, August (vol.K 1), Parsons, Albert (vol.K 12), Fielden, Samuel (vol.K 7), People's Exhibit 17 (vol.K 30).

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VOL. K.--July 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th and part 31st.

July 26th, 1886, 10 o'clock A. M.

Court met pursuant to adjournment.

ANDREW C. JOHNSON. Cross Examination resumed by Mr. Foster.

Q We were about to talk about the procession on the 30th of May, Decoration Day.

A No, that was not Decoration Day--yes, the 30th of May.

Q Yes sir, the 30th of May, I understand you to say that you heard a conversation between Mr. Spies and another gentleman on the corner?

A Not a conversation. I heard remarks.

Q A remark?

A Yes sir.

Q Was that remark carried on in a whisper?

A No sir. Not in a whisper. It was said low.

Q Who was the gentleman that Mr. Spies was talking with at that time?

A I don't know.

Q Didn't you look at him to ascertain who it was?

A I looked at him, but I didn't know him.

Q What kind of looking man was he?

A He was an oldish man.

Q Is that all the description you can give of him?

A Gray hair, gray mustache, and was wearing spectacles.

Q Did you hear any remarks from him or simply from Mr. Spies.

A I heard no remarks from that gentleman.

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Q In this conversation you say Mr. Spies said a couple of bombs would scatter the whole of them?

A He said a half a dozen bombs.

Q You were listening to hear what he had to say?

A I was standing close behind Spies at the time.

Q For that purpose?

A Perhaps so.

Q Now, I would like to have you give me the name if you can of somebody else, that heard Mr. Spies say anything besides yourself?

A I don't know as I can.

Q You were then acting as detective?

A I was.

Q In the employ of Mr. Pinkerton?

A Yes sir.

Q And reporting to Mr. Gage?

A No sir, I reported to Mr. Pinkerton, my superintendent.

Q Do you know why it is your reports are signed by Mr. Gage, vice-president of the First National Bank, or Cashier?

A I don't know.

Q Vice-President of the First National Bank?

A I say I don't know.

Q Let me have one of those reports? Where did you get these reports from before you came to testify in this case?

A I received them from the chief clerk at the Agency.

Q At Mr. Pinkerton's Agency?

A Yes sir.

Q Look at them, will you, and see whether they are countersigned by L. J. Gage? (Witness examines report).

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A That name is here.

Q That is on all of them, is it not?

A I don't know.

Q Haven't you looked at them?

A I have not looked at the back of them.

Q Look at the back of them, and see if they are all endorsed in the same way.

MR. GRINNELL: Does he undertake to say they are endorsed by Gage or that Gage's name appears on the back of them?

MR. FOSTER: So far as this witness is concerned, he says Mr. Gage's name appears on the back of them. I presume he does not know whether they are endorsed by Gage.

THE WITNESS: The name of Gage appears on the back of these.

Q L. J. Gage appears on the back of each report.

A Of these that you handed me.

Q Do you know who Mr. H. or M. Cavanaugh is?

A No sir.

Q Do you know M. D. Cavanaugh?

A No sir.

Q Do you know who Mr. H. G. Evans is?

A No sir.

Q You don't know anybody else in the world, do you, that heard this remark of Mr. Spies except yourself?

A I do not.

Q That you say was during the passing by of that part of the procession which was composed of the police?

A Yes sir.

Q Did Mr. Spies say in that connection anything about the arrangement to throw a couple of bombs, or five bombs?

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A Not that I heard.

Q He did not say that he intended to have the police scattered by the throwing of bombs, any number of bombs?

A Not in my hearing.

Q He made simply the statement or remark that you have made?

A Yes sir.

Q To which you heard no response from any body?

A He made other remarks aferwards.

Q But then, at that time, when the police were passing, was there any other remark that he made that you heard?

A Not while the police were passing.

Q What led up to this remark--what had he said just before that?

A He had been in conversation for some time. I can't recollect what he said before. He said a great many things.

Q So then, of all he said, that is the only thing that you can remember that is at that time?

A At that time.

Q The only thing you can remember is, that a couple of bombs would scatter them?

A I said a half a dozen bombs.

Q I misunderstood you if you said half a dozen bombs. I have it down a couple. At that time the police were passing, you say?

A Yes sir.

Q You don't know what he referred to any more than you would imply from his language?

A I should simply imply from his language he was referring to the police.

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Q And directly the National Guards came along?

A Following the police.

Q Following the police, immediately after his remark in regard to the National Guards, that they were boys?

A That they were all boys.

Q And fifty determined men would diarm the whole of them?

A He said something more than that.

Q He said that didn't he?

A He said that, yes.

Q He said they were all boys, and that fifty determined men would disarm the whole of them?

A No sir, that was not the way the remark was made.

Q Tell us how the remark was made?

A He said, they are all boys, and they will not be much good in the case of a riot, fifty determined men would scatter them all.

Q Didn't he say disarm them all?

A Disarm them all.

Q Which did he say?

A Disarm.

Q He didn't say scatter?

A No sir, disarm.

Q He gave that as his opinion, as you understood?

A So I understood.

Q He spoke of it as any one would in regard to the boys, gave it as his opinion that fifty men would diarm them all.

A That is what he said.

Q Did he say there was any arrangement by which they were to be diarmed?

A Not in my hearing.

Q He said nothing that in case of a riot, that it was

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arranged that they were to be disarmed, or anything of that kind?

A Not that I heard.

Q Simply gave his opinion upon what he called a lot of boys, and that is all there was to it so far as the militia was concerned, was it?

A As far as I heard, yes sir.

Q Did he appear to be talking in a whisper, or simply to this man?

A He talked low, not in a whisper.

Q In just ordinary conversation--he did not bellow it out in the street, but simply talked so this man could hear him?

A The man was standing close to him.

Q You were eaves dropping there for the purpose of hearing what he said?

A I was standing behind him.

Q For the purpose of hearing what he said?

A Perhaps so.

Q No perhaps about it--was that your object.

A I said perhaps so.

THE COURT: Do you know whether you had a motive?

A I had a motive.

MR. FOSTER: Q. And that was to hear what Spies said-- state whether any body on earth that you know of that heard Mr. Spies say that besides you?

THE COURT: How many times do you want that.

MR. FOSTER: Q. I will ask you about that he said further on. What do you say about that--did anybody else hear this remark of Mr. Spies?

A Somebody else heard it undoubtedly.

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Q Did anybody hear it that you know of?

A No, not that I know.

Q On May 31st, which appears to be the next meeting you refer to, Fielden made a speech, in which he said that it was only by force that the government could be overthrown?

A By strength or force---that was the words made use of.

Q By strength or force that the government, or was it the government or a government, could be overthrown?

A That government, as near as I can recollect the words he used were those, "It is only by strength or force that the government can be overthrown, or that we can overthrow the government."

Q Which was it?

A I won't be positive as to which it was, but it was to that purport.

Q He did not say that he proposed that the government should be overthrown, did he?

A He did not say that he proposed it should.

Q He stated there as an historical fact that it was only by force that government could be overthrown, or the government overthrown, or words to that import?

A Words to that import.

Q You had heard him say that before?

A I have several times.

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Q And since have you heard him say that substantially?

A Perhaps I might.

Q That is all that you remember now, that night on the 31st of May meeting, is it not?

A Without looking at my report it is all that I remember.

Q That brings us then to the 7th day of June at Ogden's Grove--you remember that occasion, I suppose?

A Yes sir.

Q At that time, Mr. Fielden spoke with reference that there was no use of begging of our masters. Now, with reference to the 7th of June meeting, did he say anything in that conversation about any time or any arrangement that any force was to be used, that you now remember of?

A He did refer to force.

Q Did he refer to any time, I said?

A No.

Q Did he say anything about how the force was to be applied, by what particular acts?

A No he did not say by what particular acts.

Q You never heard him say and designate a time at which force was to be applied, did you?

A Fielden?

Q Yes?

A Oh, yes.

Q You have?

A Yes sir.

Q What was the time?

A I can't recollect the date, but the place was at 12th Street Turner Hall, or rather at the landing outside of the hall.

Q That is not what I mean, that is the time when he said,

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spoke about force---but my question is, did he ever designate the time at which the force was to be used?

A Yes, and I told you when and where.

Q You don't understand me. At the Turner Hall he said that force would have to be used, but did he tell the day on which it was to be used?

A I said, yes sir.

Q When?

A The first of May, this year.

Q Did you make a memorandum of that?

A I did.

Q Where, at what meeting?

A You will find it in one of my reports.

Q Whereabouts?

A I say I cannot recollect the date, but it was at the termination of a meeting at the West 12th Street Turner Hall.

Q I wish you would just find that, take your notes and find that. I want to see it?

A I don't recollect which report it was in.

Q I don't care which it was in?

A At West 12th Street Turner Hall.

Q What was the date?

A I can't give the date.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Which conversation?

A With Fielden.

THE COURT: The question is at to Fielden fixing a time at which force was to be used, and the witness says he fixed the time on the first of May, and that he did it at some meeting at Turner Hall. Mr. Foster wants him to take his notes and find a memorandum of that.

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MR. GRINNELL: The meeting at 12th street Turner Hall was 11th or 12th of October last.

MR. FOSTER: I will pass on and see if we can't find it. He said force was to be used on the 1st day of May?

A No he did not say that.

Q I want to know the date at which he said force was to be used?

A I can't give you the date, because I don't recollect the date. I have talked to him so often and so frequently that it would be impossible for me to give the date.

Q This was in a speech?

A No sir.

Q You don't mean to say it was a private conversation between you as a detective and him as a member of the armed section?

A Certainly not.

MR. GRINNELL: It don't appear he was talking to a detective.

MR. FOSTER: It appears so now. We will get along with the detective. It was not in a speech, you say, that he used this language?

A I said no.

Q Who else was present and heard it but you?

A Others.

Q Who?

A Two or three members of the same association that I myself belonged to.

Q Let us have their names?

A I can give you the name of one.

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Q Who is he?

A Boyd.

Q Is he one of the men that you have since learned was one of the Pinkerton detectives?

A No sir.

Q What is, Mr. Boyd's first name?

A That I am not certain about, but I think it is James.

Q Where does he live?

A I don't know.

Q He heard this?

A He was there.

Q Did he hear it?

A I presume that he did.

Q You don't know whether he did or not?

A I presume he did.

Q Was the statement made to him or you?

A It was made to all that were there.

Q Made to all of you there?

A It was on a general conversation.

Q How was the force to be applied, to what building did he say?

A There was no building in particular mentioned.

Q At what point in the city was the force to be applied?

A There was no point in the city mentioned.

Q Then there was no designated place where the force was to be applied?

A No.

Q Do you know two men by the name of Boyd, one an old gentleman and the other a young man?

A I do.

Q Which was it, the young or the old man?

A It was the old man.

Q You say this was at the Northwest Turner Hall?

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A Yes.

Q The 12th Street Turner Hall?

A Yes sir.

Q How many meetings did you have there?

A Quite a number of meetings. I can't recollect how many.

Q Can't you fix about the date at which Mr. Fielden had this conversation?

A No sir, I can't fix the date.

Q You know it was at Turner Hall on 12th Street?

A It was not in the hall. It was at the landing as near as I can recollect.

Q What landing?

A As you enter the hall.

Q Down stairs?

A Down stairs as you enter the hall.

Q Then you go up stairs into the hall?

A Yes sir.

Q Was it before that meeting or after that meeting?

A It was after the meeting.

Q August 19th you say Parsons spoke, and there was something said there about the car driver's strike, in which he made some statement to you that if there had been one shot fired and Bonfield had been killed, then certain results would have followed?

A Yes.

Q You remember that conversation?

A Yes, sir.

Q Was that a speech or a private conversation with you?

A That was a speech.

Q Mr. Parsons simply was giving his opinion, was he not, of what in his judgment would have occurred, provided things had happened differently from what they did happen?


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don't know what was his opinion. I only know what he said.

Q He said that was his opinion didn't he?

A No, he did not say anything about opinion at all.

Q Didn't he say that at that riot if there had been one shot fired, and Bonfield had been killed, that then, and go on to state what in his opinion would have been the result?

A If Bonfield had been shot he said,---

Q Yes, then such and such would have been the result?

A Yes sir.

Q Did he say he intended to shoot Bonfield in the future?

A No, he did not say so.

Q Then he was simply referring to what in his judgment would have occurred if Bonfield had been shot on that occasion?

A I don't know what his judgment was.

Q You know what he said it was.

A I know what he said.

Q That is all that he said---he did not plot any treason against the life of Bonfield, did he?

A Not that I know of.

Q Neither then or at any other time?

A Not as far as I know.

Q Now you say that you never met with the armed sections of the American group of the Lehr and Wehr Verein, but twice?

A That is all.

Q And were they members of the Lehr and Wehr Verein, or were they the International Rifles?

A They were the International Rifles.

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Q How many rifles were there in the room?

A There were ten rifles in the room.

Q That belonged to the other company when they came in?

A Yes sir.

Q How many did the American section of the American Group how many rifles did they have at any time when they were drilling?

A I did not see any.

Q Did they have any?

A Not that I saw.

Q You met there and you were a member, were not you?

A I was.

Q And drilled with them twice didn't you

A Yes.

Q Did you have any guns to drill with?

A I said I did not see any.

Q You were there and drilled, did they have any guns?

A I say I did not see any.

Q Did you drill with guns?

A No.

Q That answers it---you did not drill with guns, and you drilled twice?

A Yes sir.

Q And you drilled simply with the arms that nature had given you, your hands, and you marched?

A We drilled with our feet, not with our arms.

Q Didn't you drill with your arms down to your sides?

A Certainly, and our feet in motion.

Q You drilled with your feet then?

A Yes sir.

Q Not with your arms?

A No sir.

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Q Were you armed when you drilled?

A No sir.

Q And you met there twice?

A Yes sir.

Q And that was the extent of the drilling so far as you know of the American International Rifles formed from the American Group?

A Yes sir.

Q Did they ever meet and drill when you were not there to your knowledge?

A I don't know.

Q Did you ever hear of a meeting for the purpose of drilling and not attend it, as long as you were a member?

A I have heard of other meetings for drilling purposes that I did not attend.

Q Of this section?

A Yes sir.

Q How many?

A Several.

Q You heard of meetings being called to drill?

A I heard of meetings being callled for drilled purposes.

Q And you did not go?

A No sir.

Q Why?

A Because I was otherwise engaged.

Q Where?

A At times in the city, and at other times in the country.

Q How many times did they meet to your knowledge, or did you hear that there was a meeting for the purpose of drill?

A I cannot say as to the number of times.

Q Now, as a member of that organization, and as a person who was sent there to listen to what was said, to see what was done, and report, I will ask you whether that branch, the

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American branch of the armed section were ever armed when they met for drill?

A I could not answer that because I don't know.

Q Were they as a company armed with rifles to your knowledge?

A I don't know.

Q Did you ever see them have any in their possession when they met for drilling?

A No.

Q Do you know how many meetings were ever called for the purpose in this association, for any and all purposes.

A How many meetings?

Q Yes sir.

A No sir, I cannot say.

Q Will you say there were ever more than three?

A Do you refer to the armed section?

A I refer to the armed section of the American Group?

A No sir, I would not take it upon myself to say how many meetings there were.

Q You would not say there were ever more than three meetings for any purpose?

A I won't mention any number at all, because I could not.

Q You will not say there was more than three then, there ever was more than three?

A I can't say.

Q Now, at the time these ten men came in there, and were drilled, as illustrating the movements of men that were drilled, were any of these defendants among these ten?

A Yes sir

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Q Among the ten that drilled?

A no, not among the ten that drilled.

Q That is what I say, of the ten that were brought in and drilled, were any of the defendants of the ten?

A They could not be amongst them.

Q I did not ask you whether they could not have been---I asked you whether they were?

A They were present in the room.

Q That is, you mean that Parsons was there and Fielden was there?

A Yes sir.

Q Now then, seeing what you mean by that, answer the question and tell me whether any of these defendants comprised any part of the ten that came in there with the rifles and drilled in your presence?

A I said no.

Q That is an answer.

MR. GRINNELL: He said it before.

MR. FOSTER: No, he did not.

Q At the time you joined the International Rifles, and you had a drill by a drilling master, how many men did you drill?

A How many men did he drill?

Q That drilled with you?

A Do you mean on the first occasion or second?

Q Yes, I mean on the first occasion?

A On the first occasion, as near as I can recollect there was either nineteen or twenty.

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Q How many was there on the second?

A There was two or three.

Q Never as many as twenty-five?

A No.

Q The drill master that came in there, the first man, did you say was a German----he was not there the second time, was he?

A No sir.

Q When was the last meeting of the armed section that you ever knew anything about, of the American Group?

A The last meeting that I attended I think was in August.

Q Of last year?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, don't you know as a matter of fact from inquiry of the defendants and of others in their presence, that this meeting for the purpose of drill was stopped last summer, and that during the winter season they never met for any such purpose as that?

A No sir, I don't know anything about that at all.

Q Do you know of their meeting after the month of August last year?

A Yes sir.

Q For the purpose of drill?

A For the purpose of drill.

Q How late?

A Perhaps a month or two afterwards.

Q After that have you ever heard of their meeting for the purpose of drill?

A No, not after that, but I have heard of it.

Q So then that would bring it until what time in the year would you say was the last you heard of their meeting for

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the purpose of drill?

A I think it was some time in October.

Q Now, you continued during the months of October, November and December, and most of January to continue your business as a detective to ascertain what they were doing?

A No sir, not continuously?

Q Well, you continued to act in this capacity?

A Occasionally.

Q Now, did you ever know or hear of their drilling after the month of October, or meeting for the purpose of drill?

A I have heard of it.

Q Of the American branch?

A Yes sir.

Q Meeting after October?

A I have heard it asserted.

Q By any of the defendants?

A No.

Q Or by any of the members?

A By none of the defendants, but by members of the armed section.

Q That they met after October?

A It was after October that I heard it.

Q Yes, it was after October you heard it, but what I mean, and you must know I mean is----do you pretend to say that you ascertained that they met or drilled, or met for the purpose of drilling, after the month of October, last year?

A Yes sir.

Q How late, up to what time?

A Well, I can't fix any certain time, but it was some time during last winter.

Q How did you learn that?

A It was later than October.

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Q Who told you, that is the question---how did you learn it?

A I learned it through a member of the armed section.

Q Can't you tell us who told you?

A Yes, spoke to several of them one of them was Boyd, young Boyd.

Q Who else?

A There were several others spoke to me about it? I don't now recollect who they were.

Q You can only remember young Boyd told you?

A Yes sir.

Q When was it and where, he told you that?

A It was at a meeting at 12th Street Turner Hall. I think it was some time in December, but I would not be sure about it.

Q Do your notes show that?

A I don't know whether they do or not.

Q When was the meeting?

A I think it was in December but I won't be positive.

Q That the meeting was?

A That the meeting was, when I heard it.

Q Where was the meeting held that was held for the purpose of drill?

A On the previous week I understood, at 12th street Turner Hall.

Q Did you hear before that, before that meeting, that there was to be one?

A No sir.

Q You belonged to that society, didn't you, at that time?

A I did.

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Q You were in the city at that time were you not?

Q Which time do you speak of?

Q Both times, both when they were to meet for drill, and the time when you heard it?

A No sir.

Q You say you were not in the city?

A I have already told you I was frequently away from the city.

Q I asked you whether you were in the city at the time you heard they were to meet for drill?

A I said no, it was after the drill had been---I explained it to you.

Q Why don't you answer my question. I understand you heard about it after the drill was said to have taken place?

A Yes sir.

Q Where were you at the time the drill was said to have taken place?

A Probably out of the city.

Q Probably -do you know whether you were in the city or not?

A I can't positively say.

Q You cannot tell?

A No sir.

Q You were never notified after the month of August of any meeting for drill, were you, as a member?

A I was not notified, no sir.

Q It stopped right there in August?

A (No response).

Q What is your name?

A Andrew C. Johnson.

Q That is the name that was written on your card, was it?

A Yes sir.

Q You joined the association by your right name?

A Certainly.

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Q You gave your right address?

A No address was asked.

Q Was not their addresses taken down in the book?

A No sir.

Q At the time you went there and joined you gave your own name, and never was asked in regard to your whereabouts, or where you lived?

A I was frequently asked about what I did.

Q I don't care about what boys on the street asked you, but were you asked at the time you received this card, at the time you joined, and paid your ten cents, and was taken into membership, was your address inquired into?

A No sir.

Q How did you know when there was going to be a meeting for the purpose of drill?

A That was generally fixed on a week day. We were told when the next drill was going to be.

Q When was the first drill at which you attended?

A I think it was in August.

Q When was the next drill?

A The following Monday, Monday night.

Q And you were there?

A Yes sir.

Q That is the last of the drill so far as you were concerned?

A That is the last of the drills that I attended.

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Q I say so far as you were concerned the last?

A Yes sir.

Q Was there any arrangement by which there was a notice at the meeting to be put in the Arbeiter Zeitung, that you know of?

A Not that I know of.

Q You have spoken about Mr. Schwab making some speeches-- you don't understand German?

A I don't.

Q What is your mother tongue?

A I am a Dane.

Q You speak the language I suppose?

A Certainly.

Q You don't understand German?

A I do understand a little.

Q Do you understand enough to tell us what Mr. Schwab said in his speech?

A No sir.

Q So then, when you told us the other day that Schwab spoke and was applauded, you don't know whether he was applauded for his wit or for his sentiment, do you?

A No, I can't say that I do. I don't know what he said.

Q So then you don't know anything about the character of the speech he made, or the reason of the applause?

A I could not say that I do.

Q Was there anything said, any time fixed for making a raid on the Armory?

A No sir, no particular time.

Q Was there any general time?

A It was put off until the nights got longer, or got darker.

Q The nights were not long enough?

A No sir.

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Q In the month of August to make a raid on the Armory, and it was put off until the nights got longer, and no time fixed?

A No sir.

Q No committee appointed to make the raid?

A Not that I know of.

Q No arrangements made for blowing up the Armory?

A Not that I know of.

Q When was it this occurred, do you know?

A Which do you refer to.

Q This conversation about the Armory--was that the month of August?

A Yes sir at the first meeting that I attended of the armed section.

Q Now then, September 2nd, your notes go on to state that Fielden said that they could not overturn a government, or something of that kind without force----that was just a repetition of what you heard him say before and what you have heard him say since?

A Yes sir.

Q There was no time fixed for force, or any particular or definite arrangement made for anything, just a talk--- that is all that it was, wasn't it upon that subject?

A It was a speech.

Q Well a speech. Now, you say that Mr. Fielden was asked this question at a meeting---"Would the destruction of private property secure co-operation". Now, do you understand that he said, "Would the destruction of private property

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secure co-operation"?

A The destruction.

Q Not the division of personal property?

A No, the destruction.

Q That was the question that was asked him by some body?

A Yes sir.

Q To which he replied that no man can tell what a hundred years may bring forth?

A Yes sir.

Q Where was this meeting at which Mr. Fielden made this remark?

A At 106 Randolph Street.

Q Now, don't you know from your attendance at and the observation of the meeting, that instead of the destruction of property being discussed, that it was an argument in favor of control of private property, the abolition of the control of private property--in other words, the railway corporations should be run by the government, and that great institutions should be controlled in the interest of the people, rather than one or two or three men?

A That is not so.

Q No such an argument as that was ever made to your knowledge?

A Yes, there have been arguments made as to that.

Q You don't pretend to say that Mr. Fielden or any of the defendants here favor the absolute wiping out of property, of personal property?

A No, they favor the abolishment of private property.

Q The abolishment of the ownership as it was and is now

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A Of private property.

Q That is, they were favorable to such societies and associations as the Amana Society, and others, in which there was a community of interests and ownership of property, in which there shall be no rich and no poor?

A That was part of their discussion.

Q In which there was no beggars, there was something for all, every man was required to work, and he was permitted to live---that was the general idea and the tenor of their speeches?

A To a certain extent, yes sir.

Q Now, you have spoken about Herr Most's book. Did you ever see Herr Most's book except in the German language?

A No sir.

Q Do you know that it was ever printed in English?

A I don't know anything about it. I never saw it in English print.

Q So that in any of the meetings at which you attended, or any place at any picnic or any where else, where Mr. Parsons and where Mr. Fielden were, you never saw an American edition, of what purported to be an English translation of Herr Most's book, did you?

A Yes sir, I have seen pamplets translated in Ebglish of Herr Most's work, but not of the book that you refer to.

Q I mean the book that has been introduced in evidence here?

A No, not of that book.

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Q Are there any English translations of that to your knowledge?

A Not to my knowledge.

Q Now then, I will ask you to refer to your notes to any meeting that you see fit, or all of them, and point out that portion of it in which you appoint the time fixed for any action, either in the private talk or public speech, anywhere, wherever the 1st of May was fixed for the time of action which you reported--just please point it out in your report. (Witness examines reports)

A I hold report of December 20th, and to the best of my recollection this was said on that day. You will find it stated there that I had a general conversation with Fielden.

Q I want you to point out where you said the 1st of May.

A That is not there, but you will find it stated that I had a general conversation with Fielden.

Q As a detective?

A No, not as a detective.

Q You were acting as a detective then, were you not?

A Yes sir.

Q Now you say that so important a matter as fixing the time when dynamite was to be used, and the city was to be captured, you omitted to report---is that true?

A I took no further notice of it.

Q You never reported the first of May in your written reports, did you, as being the time fixed?

A I might have done it and might not.

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Q Find it if you did?

A These are not all of my reports.

Q Where are the balance of them?

A At the Agency.

Q You think this is the meeting, do you?

A I think that is the date on which that was said.

Q On which you had that private conversation at the close of the meeting.

A I didn't say a private conversation.

Q Well, a conversation at the close of the meeting?

A A general conversation.

Q Now, if this was the time at which the private conversation was had, in which he fixed the 1st of May, I want to read to you a part of your report----

THE COURT: That is not the shape to put the question.

MR. FOSTER: I withdraw it.

Q In your report of that meeting which you reported to the company, the meeting in which the 1st of May was the time fixed, did you use these words: "After Fielden finished his speech he left the hall and went into the saloon underneath him, and I joined him and Underhill, and had a drink with them". Do you remember that circumstance?

A Yes I remember something about it.

Q Was that the occasion---was that the meeting?

A I said to the best of my belief that is the occasion.

Q That is the meeting?

A Yes sir.

Q That is the occasion when you went down to take the

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A To the best of my belief that was the occasion.

Q You remember going with Underhill down to the saloon and having a drink there?

A Yes sir.

Q You think that is the occasion on which he used this language, fixed the time?

A I said to the best of my belief that is the occasion.

Q Since I have referred to his going down, of his leaving before the meeting was out, and Underhill going down, and you going down and taking a drink---that still impresses you with the idea that that was the time?

A Well, to the best of my belief, I have already said.

Q Now then, (reads) "Before I could enter into any conversation with them, Fielden excused himself, saying that he had to go over to the North side, where he had to speak at a meeting, and Underhill and himself went away, and I returned to the hall".

A Yes.

Q You didn't report anything about fixing it the first of May?

A I already told you it might not be in writing.

Q You say in your report before you had time to get in conversation with him he excused himself and went away?

A They were talking at the time and it was while they were drinking.

Q Is there any place you can find where you reported the 1st of May as being the time fixed?

A There might be.

Q Can you find any?

A Perhaps not amongst those.

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MR. FOSTER: That is all.

Mr. Grinnell.

Q Did you see the Alarm from time to time?

A I did. I purchased copies regularly.

Q Did you visit, or were you with Parsons at other places in the United States than Chicago?

Objected to as not proper re-direct examination.

Objection sustained.

Q I will show you this paper (Handing witness the Alarm of October 17th, 1885) Look at that advertisement there. (Witness examines advertisement) Now, I will ask you if you saw the Alarm from time to time as it was issued?

Objected to as immaterial and not proper re-direct examination.

A Yes sir. (Paper referred to introduced in evidence on behalf of people).

(Same marked People's Ex. 17, in Vol of Exhibits hereto attached)

MR. FOSTER: Let him state. You may read that in evidence if you want it.

MR. GRINNELL: We will consider that read.

(See advertisement referred to here at end of witness' testimony).

Q In speaking about that girl, about which some resolutions were introduced. I will ask you if at that meeting at which the subject was broached at which you talked, and have been cross examined, whether any one was selected to perform any duty pursuant to any resolution there introduced?

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Objected to as not proper re-direct examination.

Objection sustained.

MR. GRINNELL: I wish to know from this witness what part he took or was to take pursuant to that meeting.

THE COURT: Do you say in reference to that girl?

MR. GRINNELL: Yes sir.

THE COURT: That is no part of any public matter.

MR. GRINNELL: It may be. Mr. Ingham reminds me that Mr. Foster asked this witness if they ever compassed the death of any person, because of that transaction with the girl, or ever undertook to?

THE COURT: Yes, there was cross examination upon that question as to whether anything was done specifically towards avenging the supposed wrongs of that girl. If there was any specific action in reference to that matter, that would be a reply of what was brought out on the cross.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Now, I will ask you, if any, what action was taken.

THE COURT: That is the Wight matter.

MR. GRINNELL: Yes, the Wight matter specifically.

MR. SALOMON: We object to any re-examination as to this matter, and besides that, object to it for indefiteness--- the question is not sufficiently definite.

THE COURT: Let the witness state what was done, and dont suggest in the question, what the answer shall he.

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Defendants then and there excepted to the ruling of the court.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. What is the answer?

A In a conversation with a member, of the group, the American Group, named Bodendecker, he told me---

MR. FOSTER: That was not in the meeting.

THE WITNESS: It was not in the meeting

MR. GRINNELL: I will ask him this specific question, whether or not any member of that meeting at which the resolution was introduced, at any time afterwards informed you that you had been selected to take the life of some one or avenge the wrongs of that girl.

MR. FOSTER: That is ridiculous.

MR. GRINNELL: It was not ridiculous as I can show.

MR. SALAMON: I object to your saying what you cannot show. It is improper for you to state what you cannot show.

THE COURT: Any statements of supposed members of any organization to which it is supposed the defendants belonged, would not be evidence, but anything done towards carrying out the supposed objects of the supposed organization of which the defendants were supposed to be members, anything done by any of them towards carrying out any objects of the association, would be admissible, although the party who did it is not now on trial. That is to say, if there is such a case as that the State is permitted to argue to the jury that there

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was a combination of a good many persons, then what each one of those persons did may be shown in evidence.

MR. BLACK: We don't think that applies to this case, to the evidence as it now stands.

MR. GRINNELL: I will withdraw the question until I prove the hand writing of the letter that I have, which has just been handed me this morning. I will leave that branch of the case for the present.

Q Mr. Johnson you spoke of the meeting of the American group, the armed sections at which you attended--the first meeting?

A Yes sir.

Q Will you tell me who of the defendants were present at that meeting?

A Parsons and Fielden.

Q Were anybody else present of the defendants at that meeting?

Objected to on the ground that the same question was asked on direct examination.

THE COURT: He only mentioned on Saturday those two. If he remembers now of any others that were present it is proper for him to state it.

THE WITNESS: A man was present resembling the defendant on the left.

Q Engel?

A Yes.

Q Is that as far as you can say about it?

A I would not positively say he was the man, but he resembles him very

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much, and as to the best of my belief he is the man.

Q You have stated to us what occurred, or the conversation that you had with Spies about April 12th, 1885, in reference to the McCormick strike. Now, in regard to that, do you now know of any conversation that you had with Spies, other than that which you detailed Saturday?

A Yes sir.

Q You may state what it was?

Objected to on the ground that it is new matter.

Q I am asking now what he now remembers.

THE COURT: If the witness under examination has had other circumstances recalled to his memory, it ought to be permitted to go in a cross examination on that.

MR. GRINNELL: That is all.

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