Haymarket Affair Digital Collection

Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Testimony of Marshall H. Williamson, 1886 July 22.

Volume J, 1-49, 50 p.
Williamson, Marshall H.
Newspaper reporter, Chicago Daily News.

Direct and re-direct examination by Mr. Grinnell. Cross and re-Cross-examination by Captain Black. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois.

Reporter with Chicago Daily News who was in the procession at the Board of Trade protest. Was shown a dynamite cap by some of the defendants at the Arbeiter-Zeitung building. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): weapons and explosives (vol.J 17), bombs (vol.J 6), socialists and/or socialism (vol.J 43), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.J 3), advocating revolution (vol.J 8), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.J 2), 1885 April 28 Board of Trade protest (vol.J 2), Greif's Hall (vol.J 11), discussion of legal procedure (vol.J 12), International Workingmen's Association (vol.J 15), Spies, August (vol.J 1), Parsons, Albert (vol.J 1), attendance of women and children at labor meetings and rallies (vol.J 10).

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The people
August Spies, et al.

Thursday 10 A.M.,July 22, 1886.


a witness for the people having been duly sworn, was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell, and testified as follows:

Q What is your name?

A. M. H. Williamson.

Q What is your business?

A Newspaper reporter.

Q What paper are you now engaged upon?

A Peoria Transcript.

Q How long have you been there?

A About three weeks.

Q What paper were you engaged upon last year?

A The Chicago Daily News.

Q Were you on the Chicago Daily News last spring, a year ago?

A I was.

Q Do you know the defendents or any of them?

A I do, some of them.

Q Which of them have you seen before?

A I have seen Mr. Parsons, Spies, Fielden--I think that is all that I know of them.

Q Do you remember the opening of the Board of Trade

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the new Board of Trade?

A I do.

Q Where were you on that night?

I was with the procession of the Socialists part of the time, and part of the time at 107 Fifth avenue.

Q Where did you first meet the procession?

Mr. Black--We desire to object to this as being too remote, not connected directly or indirectly with the inquiry which we have here, in behalf of all the defendents.

Objection overruled; exception by defendents.

THE WITNESS--I don't remember where I met them, the exact point; I met them on the street somewhere.

Mr. Grinnell--The procession marching?

A Yes sir.

Q Carrying banners and flags?

A They were carrying red flags, all that I saw. Banners of their order.

Q Where did the procession break up, or where did you see it last? Where were you with them last?

A At 107 Fifth avenue. I think that is where it broke up.

Q At the Arbeiter Zeitung office?

A Yes sir.

Q At that place, did you hear any speaking from any of these defendants?

A I did.

Q From whom?

A Mr. Parsons, Fielden, These are all the defendents that I remember of speaking.

Q Where did they speak from?

A They spoke from the windows of the Arbeiter Zeitung office.

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Q Tell me what they said respectively.

Objected to on the same ground as before, and particularly in behalf of the six defendents other than Fielden and Parsons.

Objection overruled; exception by defendents.

Q Tell me as near as you can what they said, in their speeches. By the way, you say they spoke from the window?

A Yes sir.

Q From which story?

Mr. Foster--We want the record to show the ruling of the court.


THE WITNESS-- Mr. Parsons, I believe was the first speaker. He spoke of the police interfering with them in marching on the Board of Trade that night, made some pretty harsh criticisms on that. (Last sentence of answer objected to.)

MR. GRINNELL--Don't use that expression--tell what he said.

THE COURT--Repeat as nearly as your memory will serve you what was said, but don't give any description of what was said. Confine yourself to stating the substance of what was said, not your opinion of it.

A He called the police blood hounds and servants of the robbing capitalists, and called on the mob to follow him in an assault upon Marshall Field's dry goods house and various

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clothing houses and take from there what he called the necessities of life--which the audience was in need of.

MR. GRINNELL--From what window did you say they spoke? Which floor, the first, second, third or fourth floor?

A It is from the second floor; the one right over the saloon, the first floor of the Arbeiter Zeitung.

Q How many people should you say, in your estimation, were front of that building that night that he was speaking?

A I should judge that there was about a thousand.

Q Now, before I forget it, when--about when was this, if you remember?

A About what hour in the evening?

Q No, about what day of the month, and what month?

A I haven't any idea the day of the month or the day of the week. It was the night of the opening of the new Board of Trade.

Q State if you remember, what else you heard Parsons say that night to that crowd?

A I cannot remember anything else. Well, that is about all that I can remember of it.

Q What did you hear Fielden say?

A Fielden said just about the same thing.

Objected to.

Q Tell what he said?

A Well, Fielden in his speech also called upon the mob to follow them, and he agreed to lead

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them to rob these places, or to go into them and take from them what they needed in the way of clothing, dry-goods.

Q What if anything, was said by either of them--and give their language if you can--in regard to the new Board of Trade. Use their language as near as you can.

THE COURT--Repeat what they said.

MR. GRINNELL--Repeat what they said.

A They both said that the new Board of Trade was built out of money of which they had been robbed; that all the men who transacted business there were robbers, and thieves and that they ought to be killed.

Q Now, was anything said by either of them as to the means or mode of killing?

A Not in the speeches from the windows.

Q Later, did you go up stairs?

A I did.

Q In company with whom?

A I went first alone.

Q Did you see anyone up there and talk with anyone?

A I saw Mr. Fielden and Mr. Parsons, and some others whose names I did not know, but upon inquiry I learned, I suppose correctly--

Q Well, did you see Spies there that night?

A I was not acquainted with Spies at that time, but I should say that I saw him there.

Q Remember now of seeing him?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you hear Spies say anything, or these other individuals

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up there when you got up stairs? What was the conversation, or what declaration, if any, was made?

A I was acquainted with Mr. Parsons at the time, and Mr. Fielden; I entered into conversation with Mr. Parsons. I had heard that it was their intention--

Objected to.

THE COURT--Tell the conversation there.

A I asked them why they did not march upon the Board of Trade and blow it up. He said because the police had interfered and they had not expected the police to interfere, and were not prepared for them. And I says: "Well, Your party was armed-- why didn't you go right through the police"? He said "we were not prepared to meet them as we wanted to." I told him that I had seen revolvers exhibited by some in the procession, and asked them what further preparation he wanted; he told me when he met the police that they would be prepared with bombs and dynamite.

MR. BLACK--Who said this?

A Mr. Parsons. Mr. Fielden was standing at his elbow at the time. And he said the next time the police attempted to interfere with them, they would be prepared for them. I asked him when that would be; he said he did not know; perhaps in the course of a year or so.

MR. GRINNELL--Where was Spies during that conversation?

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A Spies was in the room. He was not standing immediately with the party.

Q What room was that?

A He was in the front room, of the Arbeiter Zeitung office.

Q Did you there speak with Spies?

A No sir; I don't think I did.

Q Did he show you anything there that night? Was anything shown?

A I was shown what they told me was a dynamite cartridge.

Q Now, give me a description of that package that was shown you?

A The package was about six or seven inches long, an inch and a half or two inches in diameter, was wrapped up in a piece of paper; the paper was broken. In the course--after I had conversed with Mr. Parsons awhile, he took out of the broken place a small portion of the contents. It was of reddish color- -slightly reddish, and he again said it was dynamite, and that that is what they would use when they met the police. He also said he had enough of that where he could put his hands on it to blow up the business center of the city.

Q Do you know how many of those cartridges were shown you that night?

A There was only the one shown me.

Q Did you see anything else? Was any fuse--

A Yes sir.

Q Describe the fuse that was shown you?

A The fuse was rolled in a coil; I should judge there was about fifteen

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or twenty feet of it. I was also shown a fulminating cap by which they said the dynamite bombs were exploded. The cap was exploded in the room while I was there, to show me that it would go off, I presume.

Q What was the effect of that explosion of the fulminating cap? Well, it made quite a noise, and filled the room with smoke.

Q Describe that fulminating cap as near as you can now.

A It was copper and about one inch long, and perhaps an eighth of an inch in diameter, I should think.

Q In reference to ordinary common gun cap, the old-fashioned gun cap, how was its diameter? Well, it was about the size of No.22 cartridge cap, I should think. Those things when they were shown to me, they were in a drawer or dssk, and Mr. Parsons called for them. And Mr. Spies was the one that handed them to him to be shown to me.

Q Did you have any conversation at that time with any of these defendents in regard to dynamite or the use of it? Was anything asked by you or said by them as to why these things were there, and what they were going to do with them?

A Well, they said--I asked them what they were for, what they were going to use them for. Mr. Parsons told me that they were preparing for a fight for their rights; that they believed they were being robbed every day by capitalists and the thieving Board of Trade men. He said it must stop.

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That the workingman had become sufficiently enlightened to see that he was being robbed, and was going to insist and fight for his rights. He said they were preparing in various ways to carry on their warfare. He told me that they had bombs.

MR. BLACK--When was this conversation?

MR. GRINNELL--That is that conversation upstairs there that night.

Q Proceed.

A He told me that they had bombs, dynamite and plenty of rifles and revolvers, and he said their manner of warfare would be to throw their bombs from the house tops and tops of stores, and in that way they could annihilate any force force of militia or police that could be brought against them without any harm to themselves whatever.

Q How long were you there Mr. Williamson?

A I must have been there pretty near an hour, I guess.

Q Who were present that you know--any of the police officers or others?

A The first conversation, or this conversation, was had with Mr. Parsons; Mr. Fielden standing right alongside of him, and after I had had this conversation, I went down stairs. At the foot of the stairs I met Detectives Trehorn and--

Q Sullivan?

A Sullivan, of Cottage Grove avenue Station. I was acquainted with them; they were standing downstairs, I presume, listening to the addresses from the

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THE COURT--Never mind what you presume.

THE WITNESS--Well, they were standing there.

THE COURT--Just tell what happened. Don't tell any conversation you had with them.

THE WITNESS--Well, they were standing there. I met them and took them up stairs, and renewed the conversation with Mr. Parsons and left them talking with the police officers. I stood by awhile, also listening and joining in the conversation. Shall I tell what was said?

MR. GRINNELL--If you have not already told. Tell again what was said.

A Well, I was just simply going to say that the conversation that I had with Mr. Parsons was in effect repeated to the police officers in my presence.

Q Were those police officers in uniform?

A They were not; they were in citizens' clothing.

Q Do you know whether Parsons was informed as to who they were, or the character of their office?

A I do not.

Q You heard nothing of it mentioned in your presence and hearing?

A No sir.

Q You were with that procession some time that evening?

A I was.

Q Red flags were carried in that procession, you say?

A There was.

Q And carried by whom?

A They were carried by some

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Q I will ask you to look at the rear end of that table (indicating) and see if you recognize any of the women that carried banners that night.

A I cannot swear positive; it was quite dark in the streets and I could not see them faces sufficiently well.

MR. BLACK--I will ask whether the representatives of the state thinks that the carrying of red flags in that procession by women, has anything to do with this inquiry under consideration?

MR. GRINNELL--I am prepared to answer your question.

THE COURT--If you object to the testimony, that is the thing to do but to enquire of me what the State's Attorney thinks--of course I do not know.

MR. BLACK--I will move that the question be stricken out as an improper question, not material to this enquiry as to whether he recognizes any women who carried flags, or as to whether any women did carry red flags in that procession.

MR. GRINNELL--Well, he has answered that he could not.

Q Were you ever at 54 West Lake street?

A I was.

Q When?

A On several occasions.

Q In some of the halls there?

A Yes sir.

Q Several occasions when? Last year?

A No sir.

Q Since the Board of Trade opening, or before it?

A Before.

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Q How long before?

A Within a year before.

Q Who did you see of the defendants there?

A Mr. Parsons and Fielden. That is where I got acquainted with those two.

Q Did you hear them speak there?

A I did.

Q Tell what they said.

MR. BLACK--That is objected to, if your Honor please.

THE COURT--Yes, let it go in subject to objection.

MR. BLACK--Will your Honor set a limit of time to this inquiry or not?


MR. GRINNELL--There is no time to treason.

THE COURT--There is no limit necessarily. If there was a combination, why then, wherever the thing stopped, or began, is the only limit.

MR. BLACK--It is not pretended there was any combination at that time. That is to say, there is no evidence on which to base any such absurd pretension.

THE COURT--Well, they are offering their evidence now. What it will show will be for the jury to determine.

MR. BLACK--They are offering evidence now, and this question is directed to what was said by two of the defendants at some meeting occurring more than a year prior to this alleged offence, the time of the meeting not fixed, the persons

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present not determined. Haven't we at least the right, if your honor please, to know when these meetings were, so that we can follow them?

THE COURT--Of course, as nearly as the witness can remember the time.

MR. BLACK--There has been no attempt to locate it yet. My objection is to the testimony, in the present condition of the record.

MR. GRINNELL--Mr. Williamson, state as near as you can about when that was.

A I was assigned to--

Objected to.

THE COURT--No; when was it?

A They were on various Sunday afternoons and evenings during the year.

MR. BLACK--Can you fix any of them?

A No sir; I cannot fix any date.

Q Approximately?

A If I was permitted to look at the files of the Daily News you could find the date exactly, but I cannot do it from memory.

MR. GRINNELL--State now, as near as you can, what the two gentlemen you have mentioned as having seen there, as you mentioned those only--what they said.

THE COURT--Well, the witness can fix the time more nearly than he has as yet.

MR. GRINNELL--During what months was it in 1884?

A It

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was during the winter months of 1884.

Q And '5?

A Yes sir--'84 and '5, during that winter.

Q Within a year this last winter?

A Yes sir.

Q And before the Board of Trade opening which you have spoken about?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, will you state what they said?

A I heard there both Mr. Parsons and Mr. Fielden make addresses.

Q Tell what they said?

A They claimed--

Q State what they said?

MR. FOSTER--Now, that is objectionable; he is asking what two men said.

THE COURT--State what either one said.

MR. FOSTER--That is, to give it literally.

MR. GRINNELL--Give the substance of it.

THE COURT--Give the name of one and state as near as you can remember what he said.

MR. GRINNELL-- Give it literally if you can, and if you cannot, give the substance of it.

A I heard Mr. Fielden upon one occasion advise--

MR. FOSTER--No; tell what he said.

A Well, he wanted them to follow him to these clothing stores and grocery stores and other places, and get what they needed to live on, what they needed to support their families, feed their babies with, and he told them to purchase dynamite; he says that

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five cents worth of dynamite carried around in the vest pocket would do more good than all the revolvers and rifles in the world.


A. Well, Mr. Parsons also told the audience that they were being robbed, and offered to lead them to the grocery stores and various other places and get what they wanted. That I think is all I can remember of these speeches.

Q Well, you heard them how many different times that winter before the Board of Trade meeting?

A I suppose some eight or ten times.

Q How many people were present when they addressed them?

A There never was over between ten and twenty-five.

Q What was it that they addressed? Some Socialistic organization?

A I don't know what it was. It was so advertised in the papers.

Q How was it advertised--that is, what was it purported to be? --A meeting of the International Workingmen--Central Labor Union?

A I don't know; I cannot remember.


Q Mr. Williamson, when did your reportorial service with the News commence?

A About two years ago, sir.

Q When was the first of these meetings at 54 West Lake?

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--That you wer present at?

A Very shortly after I commenced on the News.

Q About two years ago, then?

A Yes sir.

Q Can you tell me what season of the year the first one that you attended was?

A It was in the winter.

Q Two years ago now, would not be winter, would it?

A No; well, it was in the winter season of '84 and '85, when I first attended their meetings.

Q Can you tell me the month?

A No sir; I cannot.

Q You said a little bit ago that if you had the files of the paper, you could fix the dates exactly. How? Did you make reports of your discovery over there, what you heard and what you saw?

A Yes sir; that is what I was sent there for.

Q Well, did you make reports?

A Yes sir.

Q And were those reports published in the paper?

A I think they were.

Q In each instance the day following the meeting, the report was published was it?

A I think so.

Q So whatever you heard over there and made a note of was at once published through the columns of the Daily News--is that so?

A I presume that is true?

Q Was that usually done in the afternoon edition or in the morning edition or in both?

A In the morning edition; I had no connection with the afternoon edition at all.

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Q At that time about what was the circulation of the Morning News, if you know?

A I could not tell.

Q Can you tell approximately?

A I could only tell you from what was published in one of the columns of the paper.

Q Well, that is mighty uncertain. But can you tell us even from that. What is published in the News is mighty uncertain. Can you tell us even from that--on the matter of circulation, I mean--that is, I mean if the rest of the papers are to be believed; of course I do not know anything about it.

A I think about a year and a half and two years ago--I think a circulation of 121,000 per day was claimed, and was published in the paper.

Q You do not mean that that was the circulation of the Morning News, do you?

A I do not know, sir; it was just simply claimed that the Daily News had a circulation of one hundred and twenty-one thousand.

Q And as a prudent man you do not want to be understood as being committed to that?

A Well, I do not know anything about the office--the business department of the office at all.

Q It is a fact, isn't it, that many articles, especially those that were considered articles of interest that were published in the Morning News, were re-printed in the

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Afternoon News?

A They were re-written and re-printed.

Q Did you observe- -for it was probably a matter of some interest to you--did you observe whether any of the artieles which were the offspring of your brain and pen were re-printed in the afternoon edition?

A No sir. I could not answer that.

Q Did not observe that?

A No sir.

Q Was that your first reportorial experience?

A No,

Q With what paper had you been connected before that time?

A I had been connected with the Peoria Transcript and Peoria Journal, for about three years before that.

Q And prior to that what was your occupation?

A Prior to that I was clerk of the Sheriff's office, in Peoria.

Q How lomg were you a clerk in the Sheriff's office at Peoria?

A About two years, I guess.

Q Prior to that what did you do?

A Well, I was page in the Circuit Court of Peoria for awhile. prior to that I went to school.

Q So that from school you went in as a page in the Circuit Court; from that in the Sheriff's office.

A Yes sir.

Q From that into the Peoria paper?

Yes sir.

Q From there to the Daily News, and you have now returned to the Peoria papers?

A I have, yes sir.

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Q How long since did you return to Peoria?

A About three weeks ago. I went there on the night of the 2nd of July, about three weeks ago.

Q When you went to 54 West Lake street did you have any trouble to get in?

A I did not.

Q In what Hall, did you find, or what portion of the building did you find these meetings being conducted of which you have spoken?

A In the front room of the top floor, I believe.

Q Yiu had no trouble in gaining access?

A No sir.

Q You found no guards barring the way?

A No sir; I think not.

Q Did you make known your presence there to the people who were assembled?

A Well, I did not attempt to conceal it at all. I simply went in and sat down, took out my notes.

Q You say that it was there that you became acquainted with Fielden and parsons?

A Yes sir.

Q On what occasion did you make their acquaintance at those meetings?

A I cannot not tell you, sir.

Q You took your note book out publicly, did you?

A I did.

Q And took your notes publicly?

A I did.

Q And the report which you wrote out was published in each instance the next day.

A I could not say it was published in each instance; I think it was

Q That was the rule, wasn't it?

A Yes sir.

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Q When you met Fielden and Parsons, was it at the first meeting, or at a subsequent meeting?

A I saw them both at the first meeting that I attended.

Q Didn't you then introduce yourself to them as a reporter of the Daily News?

A I don't remember, sir; I may have done so.

Q Well, they learned very soon that you were a reporter of the Daily News, didn't they?

A They did.

Q Was there a table in the hall for the use of reporters at which you usually sat when taking your notes?

A No sir; I never sat at that table.

Q There was a table there, was there?

A There was a table there. I don't know--I suppose it was for the use of the secretary. I never sat at it.

Q You never sat at that table?

A No sir.

Q But you made no concealment, and no effort to conceal the taking of notes by you, did you?

A Not at all.

Q You made no effort to conceal from them your purpose in their midst, did you?

A No sir.

Q What was the largest meeting that you ever heard Fielden or parsons address at 54 West Lake street, as to number?

A About twenty-five, I should think.

Q And the numbers ranged from that down to sometimes not more than ten, as I understand you?

A Yes sir, I have been at meetings when there were not more than ten present.

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Q At which of the meetings attended by you did you first hear this proposition made by Parsons to lead that company against the groceries and clothing establishments of the city of Chicago, for the supply of their necessities?

A It was at the first meeting. It was also at the same meeting that Mr. Fielden made his address about five cents worth of dynamite, and that was impressed very firmly upon my mind.

Q That was the first meeting that you attended?

A Yes sir.

Q And his proposal was five cents worth of dynamite carried in the vest pocket?

A Yes sir.

Q Did he suggest in what kind of package it should be carried?

A He did not.

Q Did he suggest how it should be taken care of so as not to hurt the man that was carrying it?

A No sir.

Q There were no special minute instructions given on the subject--a simple general proposition that five cents worth of dynamite in the vest pocket would be worth more than all the revolvers and rifles in the world?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, tell me how many were present at that meeting when that proposition was made?

A Oh, I could not tell you that.

Q Well, about how many?

A I think that was one of the largest meetings that I saw there.

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Q Somewhere--then you think there may have been from twenty to twenty-five?

A Yes sir; about that I should place it.

Q Did he mention any particular grocery establishment or clothing store which was to be attacked by that army?

A He did not mention any grocery store. He mentioned Marshall Field's and some clothing store; I think the name of Kellogg occurs in the firm name; I am not sure.

Q Was it a proposal for immediate action?

A Yes sir.

Q He proposed to go right out, then?

A Yes sir.

Q Did they go?

A Well, I don't know that it was a proposal to go right away or not.

Q Well, that is what I wanted. Was it a proposal for immediate action?

A He wanted them to follow him and offered to lead them.

Q Did he start?

A No sir.

Q What did he do after he got through that talk and proposal? Sit down?

A He did.

Q Amongst the rest of them?

A On the platform.

Q Remained there how long?

A Until the meeting was over.

Q The meeting quietly dispersed and went home, didn't it, so far as you observed?

A Yes sir.

Q And after the dispersal you met these two gentlemen, didn't you, and introduced yourself to them?

A I don't

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remember whether it was on the first occasion that I entered into conversation with them or not.

Q Well, think about that and tell me whether it was on the first occasion or a later one?

A I think it was a later one; I am not sure.

Q Now, Fielden, you say, also proposed to lead the men against some of these establishments. Did Fielden mention any particular establishment?

A He mentioned the name of Marshall Field, also, and another name, I cannot recall.

Q Was there any proposition to divide forces and march on Marshall Field's establishment with that army by different routes?

A No sir.

Q One under Fielden and one under Parsons?

A No sir.

Q Did Fielden propose immediate warfare? In other words, did he start off for Marshall Field's at the end of his speech?

A No sir; he did not.

Q What did Fielden do when he got through talking and proposed to march against Marshall Field's.

A I think then the meeting adjourned.

Q Oh, the meeting adjourned?

A Yes sir.

Q You did not see the army start for Field's that night did you?

A I did not.

Q Nor upon any subsequent occasion?

A No sir.

Q Now, about how often was that valorous proposal repeated in your presence over at 54 West Lake street?


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think I heard that at every meeting I attended.

Q Every single meeting?

A 54 West Lake Street and seven hundred and something West Indiana street, and various other places.

Q At none of the meetings did the army exceed about twenty-five, as I understand you to say?

A I do not think there were ever over twenty-five present, at their meetings in halls.

Q And the meetings were all--

MR. GRINNELL--Wait a minute--let him finish his answer.

MR. BLACK--He has finished it.

(Last question above was here read and the witness continued:)

A I have seen larger numbers of persons at open air meetings.

Q Well, I am not talking about open air meetings now. You knew that I was talking about, and the State knew it, and everybody knew that I was talking about these meetings of which you have already spoken, to wit, the meetings at 54 West Lake Street, and at any other halls that you may mention; and sometimes, I understand you, the army did not exceed about ten men?

A Yes, sir.

Q. The same proposition was made when there was only ten present?

A. Exactly.

Q Proposing to immediately march on Marshall Field's and Kellogg's and on grocery establishments and help themselves.

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A Well, at every instance, Marshall Field's name was not mentioned.

Q In some instances, the proposition was general?

A Yes sir.

Q A proposition substantially to march against the whole city?

A Yes sir?

Q And a readiness expressed of these gentlemen to put themselves at the head of the force right then and there and do the work?

A Yes sir.

Q You say that?

A Yes sir.

Q How many such meetings altogether did you attend prior to this Board of Trade meeting, as we will call it for the sake of distinguishing it conveniently?

A I should think about eight or ten.

Q How many of these different meetings do you think all told, you attended prior to the Board of Trade meeting so called?

A About ten.

Q About as many meetings as men then, pretty nearly, in regular attendance? You always found Fielden and Parsons there, did you?

A I think, they were present at every meeting.

Q Was there ever any apparent rivalry between them, or division of counsel as to how the war should be conducted?

A No sir. They seemed to agree perfectly.

Q Perfect harmony between them?

A Yes sir.

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Q So that, when one spoke the other responded?

A Yes.

Q The unanimity, I suppose, was quite marked, the unanimity of sentiment and of proposal?

A I never heard any difference between them at all.

Q Were there any other leaders in that army, apparent leaders?

A No sir, not that I know of.

Q They were the two?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you ever make any further enquiry as to the organization of that force that was in the habit of gather in here breathing out threatenings and slaughter?

A No sir.

Q Did you ever enquire as to, its organization, as to who were the officers, and as to whether they had any privates?

A I have.

Q Did you find they had any?

A Any what?

Q Any privates, or were they all officers?

A I once had a conversation with Mr. Parsons--

Q I say now, at these meetings. I am not asking about outside.

THE COURT--That is a proper answer to that question.

MR. BLACK--Before the question was answered I desired to limit the question, which I certainly had a right to do, and that is, to limit it to what he found at the meetings.

THE COURT--Well, he has already told you that at the meetings nobody was taking any lead, but those two, hasn't he?

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MR. BLACK--Q--Now, Mr. Williamson, we will come down to the Board of Trade meeting, so called. You joined a procession that night, did you?

A I did.

Q Did you carry a red flag?

A I did not.

Q Did you carry your writing tablet?

A In my pocket.

Q Your note book?

A In my pocket.

Q Did you make notes on it in your pocket?

A I did not.

Q You took it out when you wanted to make notes, did you?

A I did not make any notes? My memory was sufficiently good.

Q What position in the procession did you occupy?

A I marched at the head of it, sir.

Q At the head?

A Yes sir.

Q Who was near you?

A I cannot answer that; I do not know. I did not know those people.

Q Was that place of honor and of danger voluntarily sought by you or was it assigned to you?

THE COURT--That is too voluminous a question for that simple matter. Whether anybody put you there or you went there without anybody saying so, is the substance of it.

MR. BLACK--I do not see that your Honor has shortened it very much. However, if it is in a shape that your Honor likes better, all right.

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THE WITNESS--I reported to my office that the procession was on the march, and was told to go with them and see what occurred.

Q You were told, that is to say, from the Daily News, to go with them?

A By the city editor of the Morning News.

Q You were not assigned then, by anybody in charge of the procession?

A No sir. I chose a position myself, and what I supposed was the best.

Q That is what I wanted to get at, whether you sought that voluntarily, or was assigned that position?

A I was assigned to go with the procession and chose a position on myself voluntarily.

Q You say now that you heard speeches that were made from the windows of the Arbeiter Zeitung office to a crowd of about a thousand people in the street?

A I did.

Q And in those speeches I understand Mr. Parsons again proposed to lead the multitude against these stores that you have mentioned?

A Yes sir.

Q What did he do after he got through speaking?

A Quietly went back in the room, and I entered into conversation with him.

Q Did he dome down stairs and lead anybody?

A he did not.

Q Anywhere?

A No sir.

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Q Mr. Fielden made the same proposition, you say?

A He did.

Q What did he do after he got through the proposition?

A Joined in the conversation with Mr. Parsons and myself

Q He did not come down the street and lead anybody anywhere, either, did he?

A No sir.

Q Were those proposals that night to march against Field and Kellogg, and the grocery stores and supply their necessities for bodily raiment and sustenance proposals for immediate action or had they some reference to an indefinite future?

A I should say that they were proposals for immediate action that night.

Q And yet they did not come down to lead the army?

A No sir.

Q They simply proposed to and then gracefully retired from the window?

A They did.

Q And you went up stairs and found them?

A I was upstairs all the time.

Q I thought you were in the crowd downstairs?

A No.

Q Met some detectives down there?

A I went downstairs and met those people and took them up.

Q You were one of the favored few then that was up in the room listening from behind the scenes?

A Yes sir.

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Q Now, about how many people were upstairs at the time of these speeches?

A Twenty, I guess, in the room.

Q And among them you think was Mr. Spies?

A Yes sir.

Q And during the course of your after conversation, when the tide of oratory had ceased, you say there was a package produced with some kind of which--brownish or reddish-stuff in it.

A slight reddish, if I remember.

Q Which you were told was dynamite?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you touch it?

A Yes sir, I did.

Q It did not hurt you?

A Not a bit.

Q What was the package in?

A In a paper--that is, the package was wrapped up in a paper.

Q And the paper was torn open?

A Yes sir, at the bottom.

Q And some of the contents was produced?

A Yes sir.

Q How much of the contents was gotten out of the paper for your special inspection?

A Oh, just a little piece as big as the end of your little finger, perhaps. One of the reporters took it and carried it around in his vest pocket for a while.

Q One of the reporters? Which reporter?

A His name is West.

Q Did you ascertain whether that was five cent's worth or not?

A No sir, I did not ask.

Q You do not know. How many reporters were there

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? A There were two besides myself that I remember of.

Q So that, in that audience of twenty that were in that den of vipers, and nest of treason, there were three reporters for the newspapers, whoever they were?

A There were, yes sir.

Q On that occasion?

A Yes.

MR. INGHAM--"Many a truth is spoke in jest".

MR. BLACK--Oh yes; you are entitled to all the truth that you can get.

Q You, I understand, were known at that time, to both Fielden and parsons-at the time that you were at 107 Fifth avenue, on the Board of Trade meeting night?

A I think that they both knew me at the time. They both spoke to me.

Q Knew you as a reporter, didn't they?

A Yes sir.

Q Knew that you were connected with the Daily News?

A I presume so.

Q Didn't they also know and hadn't you told them in advance of that, of the fact that your various reports of their meetings had been published in the Daily News?

A I remember of telling them at one time that I was a reporter for the Daily News. I cannot answer that question. I don't know that I ever told them that the reports were published, or anything about it. I told them that I was a Daily News reporter.

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Q So that, as I said, there was no attempt on your part to disguise your identity?

A Not a particle, not a particle.

Q Did they ever manifest any special reluctance in detailing to you these plans that they had for the future?

A I have conversed with Mr. Parosns. He has told me-- he has revealed to me what he said were a portion of his plans, and refused to reveal the remainder.

Q Well, I mean as to what he did reveal, was these any manifestation of hesitation or reluctance?

A No sir.

Q When Fielden got through with his speech at 107 Fifth avenue, on that Board of Trade night, did you hear his conclusion to the audience?

A I cannot remember, sir.

Q Did you hear him tell his audience to go home and study political economy and the questions in which they were interested?

A I don't remember, sir.

Q Do you remember whether he said that or not?

A No sir.

Q You do not pretend then, that you heard all that was said by the orators of the evening on that occasion,

A I cannot say that I heard every word. I supposed that I heard what I considered the main points.

Q Well, was your conversation with Parsons going on, and of it while Fielden was talking?

A Perhaps it was.

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q And was your conversation with Fielden going on to any extent, while Parsons was talking?

A I think Parsons spoke first.

Q Did you talk with Fielden while Parsons was talking, do you remember?

A I don' think I did.

Q But when Fielden took the floor and began to talk you think you got to talking with Parsons?

A It may be, possibly I did.

Q And it was Parsons, I understand, who called for the dynamite, the fuse and the cap, and exibited to you those weapons of destruction?

A Yes sir.

Q You say that in the procession, or rather, you say that you told Parsons, when talking with him about the procession, and about the interference of the police, that you had seen revolvers in the procession. How many revolvers did you see?

A Some three or four.

Q Do you remember who had them?

A No sir. I was not acquainted with the people in procession. I could not pick them out, I could not identify them.

Q How many people do you think there were in that procession?

A Several hundred. There wasn't a thousand. I shouldn't think there was to exceed five hundred.

Q Well, we will suppose there were abut five hundred, and you think you saw three or four revolvers in the procession? In what part of the procession did you

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see those three or four revolvers?

A At the head of the procession.

Q And you do not know by whom they were carried?

A No sir.

Q How were they carried, if you remember?

A I saw two in the coat pocket, the right hand side coat pocket, and two more in the hip pocket.

Q Are those four all that you now distinctly remember?

A Those four were all that I saw.

Q Two carried in the coat pocket, and two in the hip pocket?

A Yes sir. Carried by four persons.

Q When you went down stairs and brought up the detectives whom you have named, were they parties whom you had known before that?

A Yes sir.

Q How long had you known those detectives?

A perhaps six months.

Q Have you ever been connected yourself with the detective service of the city of Chicago?

A No sir.

Q Directly or indirectly?

A No sir.

Q Did you ever make reports to the detectives of what you heard and learned at these various meetings?

A I have informed various police officers of what I have seen and heard,--And been informed of, regarding these people.

Q You were a sort of volunteer informer then, as far as that is concerned?

A I don't know that I was a volunteer informer. I mentioned it

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probably in the course of conversation.

Q Were you in the habit of having frequent conversation with the police officers of the city of Chicago?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you seek these conversations, or did they seek you? Or was it a case of Birds of a feather coming together?

A I perhaps sought them in the course of my business.

Q Did you tell parsons when you took those two detectives up there, whom you knew to be detectives, and introduced them to him who they were or what they were?

A I did not.

Q You knew they were detectives, but did not tell him anything of the sort.

A Yes sir.

Q Did Parsons talk freely and openly with them while you remained there?

A He talked to me. I renewed the conversation.

Q Did he talk to you in their presence?

A yes sir.

Q You renewed the conversation?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you skilfully draw him out into a repitition of what he had before said to you?--Or attempt to?

Objected to.

THE COURT--That is not a question--skilfully.

MR. BLACK--I will leave out skilfully.

Q Did you attempt to draw parsons out in a repitition

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in the presence of those two detectives of what he had said to you before?

A I simply went up there and said "Let me see that dynamite again". He produced it and that opened the conversation.

Q Yes, but did you open and carry on the conversation?

A Well, that started it, and the officers followed it up.

Q The officers followed it up?

A And I did, too. He was talking to me--I suppose that he was, and occasionally they would ask questions.

Q And questions, however, were also asked by you, weren't they?

A Yes, I think they were.

Q Now, I ask you again, did you attempt, and was it your desire to get him to repeat in the presence of the officers what he had said to you before?

A Precisely.

Q How many women were there in the procession that night, if you remember?

A I think there were four, four that I saw. I was at the head of the procession. I think there were four carrying banners along near the head of the procession. I don't know what there was in the rear end.

Q Did you look over the audience that stood in the street in front of the Arbeiter Zeitung building?

A I did

Q You think there were perhaps a thousand there at that time?

A Yes, I think so.

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Q Something more, then, than had marched in the procession?

A perhaps. Yes, I guess there were.

Q Were there women in that audience?

A Not that I know of; I don't remember of seeing any.

Q Were there women in the room where you were while listening to the speeches?

A There were.

Q How many women, do you remember?

A Mrs. Parsons was there, and a woman that I was informed was Mrs. Holmes, and I think the banner carriers were present.

Q So you think there were a half a dozen women in the building?

A I think so.

Q In the room in which you were at the time?

A yes sir.

Q Do you remember whether any women spoke that evening?

A I think there were.

Q Did they speak from the same windows to the same audience, so far as you know?

A Yes sir.

Q You made a report of all this the next day to your paper, did you not?

A I think I did, yes.

Q And that report was published, was it not?

A I don't know whether it was or not, sir; very seldom that I used to read the Daily News.

Q You did not often read it?

A No sir, I did not. I usually had an idea of what was going to be in it, and I that satisfied. Very seldom that I read it.

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Q I will ask you whether or not to your knowledge, the meetings which you attended were regularly advertised in the Daily News?

A To the best of my recollection, they were.

Q Did you have anything to do with procuring the advertising of those meetings, in the Da ly News?

A No sir.

Q Directly or indirectly?

A No sir.

Q Did you ever say anything to the management of the Daily News about their advertising those dangerous meetings and people?

A No sir.

Q Did you ever call their attention to their unpatriotic course, in so doing?

A No sir.

Q Or to the danger with which they were helping to menace the community by lending publicity to such matters?

A No sir.

Q Are you quite certain that any woman spoke from the windows that evening to the audience?

A No sir; I am not certain.

Q But is that your best recollection?

A It is.

Q Is your recollection upon that subject about as clear as upon any of the other matters as to which you have testified --or, rather, I would say, as to the substance of what was spoken?

A It is not so clear on that point as it is on other points.

Q Well, your impression is quite strong that they did speak, some of them?

Yes sir

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Q More or less?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember who?

A I think Mrs. Holmes made a speech, and Mrs. Parsons.

Q You think those two spoke from the windows that evening?

A I think so.

Q And your recollection upon that subject, you say, is quite clear?

A Yes. I think it is pretty clear.

Q Can you remember what either of them said?

A No sir; I do not. If I remember right they made addresses while I was talking with Parsons, and I did not hear what they said, at all.

Q Do I understand you, Mr. Williamson, to say that you have never been connected, directly or indirectly, with the police or detective force of the city of Chicago, since you have been here?

A I have never had any connection with them whatever, either this police department or any other. Nor any detective service.

Q Who was it that on that night at the Arbeiter Zeitung office showed you the fuse and cap?

A Mr. Parsons.

Q Parsons showed you all those things, I understand?

A Yes sir. I talked mostly with him because I was better acqualinted with him than with Fielden. That is, I don't mean to say that I was very well acquainted with him, but I had had conversations with him, and I know him from having had conversations with him. I don't suppose it

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was an acquaintance.

Q The occasion of this procession, as I understand, you, grew out of the dedication of the Board of Trade in the city of Chicago--the Opening of the Board of Trade?

A It was rumored,, if you will permit me to state a rumor--

Q Well, I don't care about the rumor,--simply want to connect the two, to see whether one was connected with the other, in any way, as you understand, and as you understood.

MR. GRINNELL--Well, let him answer on that question.

MR. BLACK- Well, he shakes his head.

Q It was on the occasion, the same evening, as you understood, that the Board of Trade was opened?

A It was on the same night and they marched on the Board of Trade, or would have done so had not--

Q How do you know they would?

MR. GRINNELL--He was at the head of the procession.

THE COURT--The question was answered by what had been said, and leave out what would have been done.

THE WITNESS--From what was told me.

MR. FOSTER--No. You are not asked that. You say it was that night, and that would be all.

THE COURT--That would be all, whether it was the same night. The rest of it may be stricken out.

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Q Mr. Williamson, when you were interrupted by Capt. Black, you were about to say something about some interview that you had with Parsons in regard to the plans, also in regard to leaders and privates in the army, as he designates it. Will you please state what that was?

MR. BLACK--We object. If the gentleman wanted to bring that out, he had the witness to do it. It was just as competent on direct examination as anything else they have put in from the lips of this witness, but most certainly not proper re-direct.

THE COURT--I think that is competent, because the question which was put did call for more than the witness told.

MR. BLACK--If I put a question and withdraw it, or modify it, does your Honor hold that they can go back to my unmodified or withdrawn question, and rule that he can answer?

THE COURT--Where the cross-examination calls for a subject matter and then the witness begins to state it but is cut short, they are entitled to the rest of that subject matter, if that is competent.

MR. BLACK--Fortunately, he did not get out of the subject matter.

The court overruled said objection; to which ruling of

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the court defendant excepted.

THE WITNESS--I had a cinversation with Mr. parsons in the rear room on the second floor of that building. It was where they I believe, called it the office of the Alarm, and he detailed to me some of his plans.

THE COURT--Don't tell it in that way; just tell what he said to you.

MR. BLACK--We object to it as improper re-direct examination. We object to it as incompetent and improper anyway; immaterial and irrelevent to these issues. We object to it in behalf of the othe seven defendants other than Mr. parsons.

Objection overruled; exception by defendants.

MR. GRINNELL-- Proceed, Mr. Williamson. A I went to Mr. Parsons for the ourpose--

Q No, don't tell for the purpose. Tell what was said by you, and what was said by him when you got there, as near as you can. A Mr Parsons told me that he had -- or that there were some three thousand armed Socialists in the City of Chicago, that they were well armed with rifles and revolvers, and would have dynamite and bombs when they got ready to use them. He said they were meeting and drilling at various halls in the city. I asked him if he would give me a list of those halls, and he would not do so; he refused to do so. I asked him where the rifles were purchased, what

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kind they were--what kind of revolvers; he refused to tell me; I asked him how they knew each other. He said the societies or Society was divided into Groups and that they knew each other, he says, by twos and threes; that is as he explained it--That no one man knew more than two, or three others. I think that was about all he told me in that connection.

Q Did he have in his presence, or show to you, a newspaper published by himself- the Alarm?

A Yes sir.

Q Was there anything shown to you upon that as a means or manner of warfare? Do you remember of seeing anything?

A He showed me an article, but what it was I don't remember.

Q About street warfare?

A Yes, I think it was.

Q What were you going to say? What did he say there in that connection?

A I was going to say at that time he repeated what he had previously or afterwards told me, I don't know which--About their manner of street warfare, throwing bombs from the house tops.

Q Do you know whether any map or plat was shown you?

A No sir; I don't think there was, but he told me it was their intention to--

MR. SALOMON--That is objected to. That is not in response to the question.

Mr Grinnell. = Yes, it is, too.

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MR. BLACK--This man don't require questions.

MR..INGHAM--He is sworn to tell the whole truth.

MR. BLACK--Why didn't he do, it in the first instance?

MR. GRINNELL--I asked him specific questions then.

THE COURT--Stop conversing, and let the witness tell what his interview was there with Parsons.?

THE WITNESS--He told me it was their intention to occupy the market place, or Market street, and the Washington street tunnel, and in that position they could successfully combat any force that could be brought against them.

MR. GRINNELL--Now, have you at any time had any conversation with any of the defendants other than that which you have detailed? If you have, state it--I mean with reference to this.

Objected to.

THE COURT--Well, he says No.--That is, he waves his head in answer.

MR. GRINNELL--You have attended, I find from your answers other meetings than those at 54 West Lake street?

A I did.

Q And mentioned one at Milwaukee avenue?--

A No sir; seven hundred and something Indiana avenue - Indiana street, I mean.

Q Who addressed that meeting?

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Objected to.

THE COURT--Well, the first notice of anything about Indiana street, came out on cross-examination.

MR. BLACK--I beg your pardon; It was volunteered by the witness.

THE COURT--I say it came out.

MR. BLACK--I don't care if it did. The witness cannot make testimony by volunteering and then open up new matter on the re-direct examination. I did not ask him about that meeting.

THE COURT--No, the question was general, as to all meetings, although you said afterwards that you meant only the meeting at 54 West Lake. But the question at first which he answered was general.

MR. BLACK--Well, suppose it was, and he volunteered an answer that he attended a meeting there?

THE COURT--Well, they have a right to it.

MR. GRINNELL--You would not cut me out, brother Black, if it was an omission, would you?

MR. BLACK--I have no doubt it was an omission. You knew all about it before.

THE COURT--Proceed with the West Indiana meeting.

MR. GRINNELL--Who addressed that meeting?,

A Mr. Parson and Mr. Spies. It was advertised as a neeting to organize a

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new Group of the International working men of that Society; I don't remember the exact--

Mr. BLACK--We will move that that part of the answer volunteered by this witness be stricken out.

THE COURT--You mean that about the advertising?

Mr. BLACK--Yes sir, that portion of it which he volunteered.

THE COURT--Yes; strike out what was said about the advertisement.

Mr. GRINNELL--Who did you say addressed the meeting?

A Both Mr. Parsons and Mr. Fielden.

Q You used the word Spies a moment ago.

A Well, then it was a mistake in regard to Mr. Spies; I did not know Mr. Spies.

Mr. BLACK--You mean Parsons and Fielden?

A Parsons and Fielden.

Mr. GRINNELL--Well, you have told what they said. What meetings have you seen or heard any of the defendants address other than those that you have mentioned?

Objected to.

Q Well, have you seen these defendants or any of them in other meetings than those that you have mentioned?

Objected to as not proper redirect examination.

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THE COURT--That is not redirect. It is true that in so voluminous a case as this that sometime on a re-direct questions should be permitted which are not in reply to the cross examination, but I do not like to do it.

Question withdrawn.

Mr. GRINNELL--You say the meetings dispersed and they went home? This at 54 West Lake Street was at Greif's Hall, wasn't it?

A Yes sir.

Q What is called Greif's Hall?

A Yes sir.

Q Did they all go home first? Or did they go down to Greif's Hall?--Down in the saloon there?

A They went down in the saloon, drank some. I presume then they went home; I don't know where they went. I cannot say that Mr. Greif run the place at that time.

Mr. Black:

Q Now, Mr. Williamson, who was present at this conversation between you and Parsons at the so-called office of the Alarm?

A There was no one present, sir, I believe.

Q When did that conversation take place?

A I cannot, tell you the date, sir.

Q Can you tell me anywhere near the date?

A It was in the winter time, that same winter.

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Q How long was it after you had first become acquainted with Parsons?

A I could not tell you that.

Q How long was it before the so-called Board of Trade meeting?

A I cannot give you the date of the opening of the Board of Trade.

Q How near? That is not an answer. You can tell me perhaps approximately how long was it before that--whether it was a week or a day, a month or two months? Can you tell?

A No sir; I could not.

Q Was it in 1884 before New Year's Day of 1885, or was it in 1885?

A I should think that it was after New Year's Day or sometime in 1885.

Q And there was no person present at the conversation but just you and Parsons?

A That was all, I think.

Q How many thousand did he say they had in their drilling all together?

A Three thousand, he said, about.

Q They knew each other by twos and threes?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you ask him how they managed to drill if they only knew each other by twos and threes?

A I did not.

Q It did not occur to you to enquire as to that?

A No sir.

Q They drilled, you said?

A That is what he said.

Q And he said they had halls?

A Yes sir.

Q But declined to tell you how many? And yet he said they knew each other only in groups of twos and threes, and

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in all that army of three thousand, as you understood, from what he said, no man knew more than two ot three of them?

A That is what he said.

Q And yet they drilled. You mean that, do you?

A That is what he said; I don't know anything about it.

Q You asked him various other questions, didn't you?

A I did.

Q Asked him what kind of arms they had?

A I did.

Q What kind did he tell you they had?

A He said they had rifles and revolvers.

Q Anything else?

A He did'nt say they had anything else at that time.

Q We are after that conversation now, and don't go outside of it.

A Those are all the arms that he mentioned.

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