Haymarket Affair Digital Collection

Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Testimony of James Bonfield (first appearance), 1886 July 19.

Volume I, 346-380, 35 p.
Bonfield, James.
Detective, Chicago Police Department.

Direct examination and re-direct by Mr. Grinnell. Cross-examination by Captain Black. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois. People's Exhibit 9 (vol.I 350) introduced into evidence.

Brother of Inspector John Bonfield. Police officer who arrested August Spies and Michael Schwab. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Most, Johann (vol.I 356), 1886 May 5 search of the Arbeiter-Zeitung office (vol.I 366), items confiscated from the Arbeiter-Zeitung office or the defendants' homes (vol.I 347), "Revenge" circular (vol.I 348), "Attention Workingmen" flier (vol.I 356), Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.I 346), time and place origination of the gunfire (vol.I 352), Central Labor Union (vol.I 351), Spies, August (vol.I 346), Spies' version of the Haymarket events (vol.I 351), arrest of Spies and Schwab (vol.I 346), Schwab, Michael (vol.I 346), Fielden, Samuel (vol.I 352), Fielden's version of the Haymarket events (vol.I 352), I375, arrest of Fielden (vol.I 375), Fischer, Adolph (vol.I 354), arrest of Fischer (vol.I 354), Schnaubelt, Rudolph (vol.I 379).

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a witness produced on behalf of the People, after having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

Direct Examination by

Q You are a police officer of the city?

A I am.

Q How long have you been a police officer?

A Between five and six years.

Q You are a brother of Captain Bonfield?

A I am.

Q The Inspector of Police?

A Yes sir.

Q What, if any, other positions have you held besides that of policeman?

A I was bailiff in this court for two years, and assistant jailer four years. I was Deputy Assessor for a couple of terms in the South Division.

Q You made the arrest of some of the defendants in this case?

A I arrested August Spies and Mr. Schwab. I arrested another man at the time, but he is not a defendant.

Q Where did you arrest them?

A At 105 and 107 Fifth Avenue.

Q It used to be called the "Arbeiter Zeitung" office?

A Yes.

Q You may state what occurred and what was said and what you did.

Objected to on behalf of all the defendants excepting the two who were arrested; objection overruled; to which ruling of the court the defendants referred to, by their counsel, then and there duly excepted.

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A It was the morning of the first of May, after the bomb was thrown, I got up in the office and a gentleman pointed out Mr. Spies to me. I told Mr. Spies that I would like to see Mr. Schwab to speak to both of them. I did not know Mr. Schwab; he was sitting down and he called him over; and he came over. I told them I was an officer and placed them both under arrest. August Spies' brother came up; I also placed him under arrest, and then Officers Wiley and Duffy came in, and we took them to the police station. Afterwards I went back to the building on two or three different occasions that day; I think I went there three different times. At one time in Mr. Spies' office I found a small piece of fuse and a fulminating cap, and a large double-acting revolver.

Q How much fuse?

A About five inches I should judge; it might have been more or less.

Q You have them here?

A Yes.

Q Please show it. (Same exhibited to counsel.) Where did you find that?

A I found that revolver (indicating) under a wash stand in the office; that dirk file was along with it, about as those lay now, (indicating) with the paper doubled over them loosely. I found that piece of fuse and that fulminating cap (indicating).

Q Describe that fulminating cap and the fuse?

A It is an ordinary fuse; the fulminate is in the end of the cap; the fuse is inserted that way (indicating) and

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the cap is pinched, and that is inserted in the dynamite and the hole closed. I have used it. You can cut the fuse according to the distance that you want to get away from the explosion.

Q What is the cap used for?

A I never saw it used for anything except dynamite and nitro-gylcerine. I have used it in mines for that purpose. The shot from that cap when it exploded touches the dynamite and explodes.

Q What is the power of the cap itself?

A I don't think it would amount to anything unless you held it in your hand, or something like that. I found that "Revenge Circular" as it is called.

Q Where did you find it?

A In Spies' office, in the same room that I arrested him in. This box (indicating) contains a great many empty shells, evidently for a Winchester improved rifle; there are also some sporting cartridges; some are empty and some are loaded.

Q What is the calibre of that pistol?

A I think it is a 44; I did not measure it; it is an uncommon size.

Q You may look at this and see if you ever saw it before (handing witness a file of "The Alarm.")

A I took that from the gentleman--- I think the gentleman there with the white necktie and smooth face was there when I took it.

Q Did you see Spies or talk with him again there that first day?

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A On the 5th, after his arrest that night the reporters were around there thick, and the Chief told me I might take them down one at a time. The first reporter I took down was a gentleman by the name of Graham, and the other man's name I don't remember. I had a conversation with Spies that night and I think with Fielden. Anyhow the reporters carried on the major portion of the conversation. I occasionally asked a question.

Q Was Mr. Knox of the "News" there?

A Yes.

Q Did you go down with them together?

A Yes.

Q Did you have any conversation with Spies then, or did Spies make any declarations to them?

A We had a conversation, and I occasionally asked a question.

Q State what occurred---what Mr. Spies said down there?

Objected to on behalf of all of the defendants excepting Spies; objection overruled; to which ruling of the Court the other defendants than Spies then and there duly excepted.

A I think it was Mr. Graham asked him to give his part in the meeting.

Mr. FOSTER; I suppose the Court recognizes this rule to exist, that anything that is done in pursuance of a conspiracy or during the carrying out of a conspiracy is competent as against all until the conspiracy is consummated and the conspirators separate; then the statement of one is not to be regarded and cannot be received except as against himself.

THE COURT: That would be the subject of instructions;

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that is not a question as to the admissibility of the testimony.

Mr. FOSTER: I think it is to this extent, that the record ought to show whether or not this testimony is received as against all of the defendants or only received as against one. The instructions, in order to reach it, would have to be as voluminous as the record. It has been my practice, and I suppose that that was the proper practice, to make that objection now as it has been made, and allow the court upon the ruling to state that it is received only as against the party making it; that completes it; the record is perfect; there is no necessity of any instructions.

THE COURT: I have no objection to making the declaration now, that any statement by any one of the defendants made in the absence of the other defendants is no evidence--- any statement made after the Haymarket meeting, after the separation of the people at that meeting---any statement made by any one of the defendants not in the presence and hearing of some other one of the defendants, is evidence only against the man who makes the statement, and it is evidence only against the one in whose presence and hearing it was made, if he assented.

Counsel for the People introduced in evidence what is known as the "Revenge Circular." Same marked for the purpose of identification "Peoples' Exhibit 1 of July 19, 1886. Copy hereto annexed, marked "Peoples' exhibit 6," contained in Vol. of Exhibits hereto attached.

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Objected to on behalf of all of the defendants; objection overruled; to which ruling of the court defendants, by their counsel then and there duly excepted.

THE COURT: The English portion of it ought to be read now.

The English portion of the circular was read to the jury by Mr. Grinnell.

To the reading of which the defendants, by their counsel objected; objection overruled; to which ruling of the court the defendants, by their counsel then and there duly excepted.

Mr. GRINNELL: Q Tell what Mr. Spies said in the Central Station in the presence of Graham and Knox?

A Mr. Spies gave an account of his movements that evening for a few hours previous to the Haymarket meeting, he said there was a meeting of the Central Labor Union at his office; among others he mentioned a man by the name of Brown and a man by the name of Ducey that attended that meeting, and when they adjourned there they went down to the Haymarket; he gave an account of the gathering of the crowd and how it threatened to rain, and how they went on the side street, and he told about who spoke, about Fielden's speaking at the time that the police came up.

Q Where did he say that he was at that time?

A He was on the wagon and young Turner was there; he refused to give his name at the time; he had told him to

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come down, the police were coming, and took him by the hand and helped him down.

Q Did he give you the name afterwards? He just simply said it was a young turner?

A. I asked him his name and he refused to give it; he said if he would give his name the police would arrest him; and he afterwards gave his name. The name was Letchner, or some such name as that. He told about the police coming up, and the encounter; he claimed that the police had opened fire on them, and they were the aggressors.

Q Where did he say he went, if anywhere, when he got off of the wagon?

A He went in the east alley; that would be the alley next to Crane's, my recollection is, and came out onto Randolph street. He said he approved of the nethod, but he thought it was a little premature, that the time had hardly arrived to start the revolution, or the warfare. I cannot just use the term he used, but that is the sense of it. After getting through with him, I took the reporters around to Mr. Fielden, and I introduced them and told Mr. Fielden who they were, and that they wished to see him, and that he might use his pleasure about talking to them, whether he wanted to or not. Fielden was quite lame.

Conversation had with Fielden objected to by counsel on behalf of the other seven defendants; objection overruled; to which ruling of the court the other defendants, by their counsel, then and there duly excepted.

A Fielden said he was there when the police came up, and

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he did not talk very much; he said he got wounded in the east alley; he said that he then got a car and I think he went around to the corner of Twelfth and Halsted or Van Buren and Halsted, and that then he got another car and went down to the Arbeiter Zeitung office to see if any of his friends had got back there.

Q That same night?

A That same night, and that from there he went over to the Haymarket again, and I made the remark he was going around a good deal for a wounded man; he said yes, but he wanted to see if any more of his comrades were hurt; that was about the substance of it.

Q Where was he wounded? Did you see the wound?

A He held his hand to it. It was some place on the right knee.

Q Was anything said by him as to how he got wounded?

A He got wounded running down the east alley.

Q Was anything said about that? Was he shot or did he fall down?

A He told me he was shot running down the alley next to Crane's.

Q Did you have any other conversation with him?

A I took the reporters also to Schwab's cell and Schwab didn't talk very much, or I didn't pay very much attention to him.

Q You did not hear any conversation with him?

A No; some other people came down there and kept bothering around and I did not hear what Schwab had to say.

Q Afterwards do you remember or were you present at a conversation between Spies and myself at the Central Stations,

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or Spies and the officers when I was present?

A Well, I cannot place that just now.

Q Did you have any other conversation with Spies at any time or hear any?

A I cannot remember any conversation up stairs in the office with Mr. Spies; there might be one. The prisoners were taken up and down a good deal.

Q Do you know Fischer?

A I do.

Q You were at his house?

A Yes.

Q When?

A I cannot give the day when Fischer was arrested. Fischer was arrested at the same time or a few minutes after Spies and Schwab was arrested.

Q Did you make the arrest?

A I was there when he was arrested. I saw him taken down stairs. I saw him going up stairs and I spoke to an officer about him, and he was followed up and arrested on the stairs some place. I saw him on the sidewalk in front of the stairs a few minutes afterwards, and it was a few days afterwards that I found out where Fischer lived. I had been trying to find his house.

Q What is his number?

A I don't recollect now. It in on North Wood Street, 170 or 176. I went to his house with Mr. Furthman and I think Officer Jones; we got there somewheres about nine or ten o'clock. I saw his wife and made a search of the house. At the front door leading into the house there is a porch over it and in front of the door, and under the porch is a little kind of a closet---a small room in there; in there I found a piece of gas pipe, I should judge about three or three and a half feet long.

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Q Was there any gas in the house--- gas connections or gas pipes?

A No sir

Q How many feet of gas pipe did you find?

A I should think it was three and a half or four feet.

Counsel for defendants enter general objection to this testimony referring to Fischer and particularly object on behalf of the seven other defendants than Fischer objection overruled; to which ruling of the court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.

WITNESS: (Continuing.) I should think it was an inch or an inch and a quarter in diameter. I felt in both ends to see if it was empty and laid it down again. I searched around and went back again and couldn't find it in a day after.

Q It was gone?

A Yes.

Q Do you remember of any conversation with Fischer afterwards in the office?

A I do.

Q What was that?

A Fischer was up in the office, and among other things he was asked to explain how he came by a fulminating cap.

Q That was a fulminating cap similar to the one you had there?

A Yes, it was found in his pocket at the time of his arrest. He said he got it from a socialist that used to visit Spies' office about four months previous, that he handed it to him on the stairs--the foot of head of the stairs---and he claimed he did not know what it was and had carried it in his pocket for four months; he did not know

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what use there was for it. After some further conversation in answer to some questions put by Mr. Furthman he acknowledged that he knew what it was and read an account of it and the use of it in Herr Most's book.

Q In Herr Most's Science of War?

A Yes.

Q At what place was that?

A At the detective's office.

Q What was the appearance of that fulminating cap, as to whether it had been tarnished. or as to whether it was bright?

A It looked to be perfectly new and the fulminate was fresh and bright on the inside.

Q Do you remember if there was any fuse attached to it?

A No sir, not at the time that I saw it.

Q Is that all the conversation that you remember about?

A He told of being at the meeting.

Q Where did he say he was in reference to that meeting?

A He said he was there until a few minutes before the explosion of the bomb, and he went from there to a saloon.

Q Zepf's Hall?

A Yes, and that he was in there at the time of the explosion.

Q Did you have any comversation with him about this circular in jail, or at any other place (referring to circular headed "Attention, Workingmen!")?

A I did.

Q What?

A First he didn't know anything at all about it; afterwards I showed it to him and told him the proof I had, and he acknowledged it was he that got it up.

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Q What did he say? Tell the conversation in full.

A I don't believe I can Mr. Grinnell. We had conversations with so many of those people at that time; three or four different conversations an hour sometimes.

Q He finally admitted that he got it up. Was anything said as to where it was printed?

A He acknowledged getting it printed at Wehr & Kline's.

Q When?

A The night of the meeting. I think their own office was closed, and he went over to Wehr & Kline's, and got it printed, over there.

Q Was anything said about the number that he got printed?

A My recollection is now it was 2500--- 25,000 or 2,500.

Objected to on behalf of all the defendants except Fischer.

Cross Examination by

Mr. BLACK: I will move to exclude this testimony, and particularly move to exclude the portion objected to; the motion I presume will be overruled and I will take an exception.

Q You are in the detective branch of the police force?

A It is not called so now; it was called so.

Q Since when has the name been changed?

A I think Mr. Doyle changed it about two years ago.

Q How long have you been connected with the police department?

A Between five and six years.

Q Are you a brother of the inspector of the Police?

A Yes.

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Q About what o'clock in the morning did you effect the arrest of Spies and Schwab?

A I think in the neighborhood of nine o'clock.

Q That was down at 107 Fifth Avenue, was it?

A Yes.

Q The office of the Arbeiter Zeitung?

A Yes.

Q Did you find them there at that office when you went there?

A I did.

Q Did you find the force of the paper and of the printing establishment at work in the building?

A I did not go up to the printing office at that time.

Q Where did you find Spies?

A In the front office.

Q What was his position in that office--- I mean where was he sitting or standing and what was he doing at the time you went there?

A He was to the left of the door as I entered; my recollection is that he was talking to somebody. I followed what I supposed was a saloon keeper and he was going up there, and I told him I wanted to have him introduce me to Mr. Spies; he said he was going up there and knew Mr Spies; when we went in he pointed him out. My recollection is that he stood to the left of the door and was talking to somebody. Schwab was over to the right and was sitting down; I remember that distinctly.

Q They were both in the same office, were they?

A Yes.

Q That is in the front room of the building?

A Yes.

Q On what floor?

A The second floor.

Q So that you only went up one flight of stairs?

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A Yes.

Q Did your friend or acquaintance introduce you to Mr. Spies?

A This man did not know me at all. I told him I wanted to see Mr. Spies and I did not know him personally. I talked very friendly with him, as though I was around there a good deal. I don't suppose the man knew me, or I did not know him.

Q Did you go up one flight or two flights of stairs in order to reach this office?

A I think it was two flights of stairs.

Q Was it the business office, or was it a private office that you entered, if you remember?

A There were several in there at the time.

Q It was the editorial room of the paper, was it not?

A I don't know what they called it; there were three or four men in there besides those two.

Q Wasn't there some sort of a sign on the door showing that it was an editorial room?

A I don't think that I remember.

Q You told Schwab and Spies to consider themselves under arrest?

A Yes.

Q Who was with you at that time?

A I was alone at that time.

Q Who came up afterwards to re-inforce you?

A The first officer that came in was Officer Wiley

Q How long after you went in there was it that Wiley came up?

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A Well perhaps a moment and a half or two.

Q There was no resistance or opposition to you by either of the gentlemen?

A No sir, there was not; when I got acquainted with them and knew who they were I whistled and Officer Wiley came running up.

Q Did you tell them to consider themselves under arrest before Wiley got there or afterwards?

A Before. I told them I was a police officer, and they could consider themselves under arrest.

Q Did you have any warrant for their arrest with you at that time?

A I had not.

Q There had been so far as you know no complaint made against any of them, before any magistrate, up to that time?

A None that I know of.

Q And no warrant so far as you know had ever been issued for their arrest?

A None that I know of.

Q Who else did you put under arrest at that building at that time besides Spies and Schwab?

A When I was talking to Spies and Schwab another gentleman came up and asked them some question. I asked Mr. Spies who it was; he said it was all right, it was his brother. I said, "All right, he had better come along too."

Q You arrested his brother?

A Yes.

Q Did you have a warrant for his arrest?

A No sir.

Q Had any complaint to your knowledge ever been made against him before any magistrate?

A None that I know of.

Q Are those the only three that you personally arrested

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in that office at that time?

A That is all.

Q Then you went down stairs --- did you take them with you?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you remain in front of the building until Fischer was brought down?

A I saw Fischer on the sidewalk and I saw him go up stair, and I made the remark "Who is that long-legged fellow? and afterwards I saw him under arrest on the sidewalk. Now, I cannot say whether it was at that time or on a subsequent visit to the paper office.

Q You were in charge of the police officers who went there for the purpose of making arrests that day?

A Not at all.

Q Who was?

A Each man acted independently, as far as I know.

Q Do you mean to say that you were not acting under any directions--- were you acting under your own volunteered notion?

A I was acting under direction, but you did not ask me that.

Q Each man was acting upon his own responsibility?

A I should judge they were using their own judgment.

A They were acting under orders?

Q You were acting under orders?

A We were told to go out and arrest those men if we found them. We found them and arrested them.

Q Who were with you at the time you received those instructions to go out and arrest those men?

A I think there was perhaps twenty or twenty-five officers in the station at the time the order was given.

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Q Where was the order given?

A At the Central Police Station.

Q That is in the city building on LaSalle street, between Washington and Randolph, is it not?

A Yes sir.

Q That is where the order was given?

A Yes.

Q By whom was that order given?

A I think by Lieut. Shea, gave the order to us.

Q The order you say was given out to arrest those men? Did they give you the names?

A There was Fielden's name given and Schwab and Spies and Parsons.

Q Was Fischer's name given?

A I did not know Fischer at that time.

Q Was Chris. Spies name given?

A No sir.

Q In arresting Chris Spies you acted on your own judgment?

A Yes.

Q And in causing the arrest of Fischer you did the same?

A I was not directly the cause of Fischer's arrest, although I would just as leave I was. I remember the man going up stairs and I asked who that long-legged fellow was, and I made some remark, and I know shortly afterward I saw him with Officer Slayton on the sidewalk.

Q Slayton was not acting under your direction?

A No not at all.

Q You were, however, acting harmoniously?

A I don't know whether they were in harmony with my action or not. I went on and did what I thought was right.

Q You did not either of you attempt to get in the other fellow's way?

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A Nobody interferred with me. Everybody was anxious to get them.

Q You were anxious to take them all in weren't you?

A Any person I thought had a hand in that massacre I was very anxious to get hold of.

Q Where did you go with Spies, Schwab and Fischer?

A Nowhere that I know of.

Q Where did you go with Spies and Schwab?

A To the Police headquarters.

Q Where did Slayton go with Fischer?

A He was brought in there afterwards.

Q Did you go on foot or did you go in the patrol wagon?

A Went on foot.

Q From 107 Fifth Avenue to Police headquarters?

A Yes.

Q How long after you reached police headquarters did Slayton get there with Fischer?

A I cannot measure the time. I do not remember.

Q I understood you to say, if I am not mistaken, that Fischer was brought down to the pavement in front of 107 while you were still there, is that correct?

A I was there when he was on the front sidewalk in charge of officer Slayton; whether that was at the time of the arrest of Schwab and Spies or shortly afterwards, I won't say.

Q You made three visits there that day?

A Yes, three or four.

Q In what part of the room did you find that revolver that you have exhibited?

A It was in the back part of the

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Q The back part of the front room?

A Yes sir.

Q Under a washstand?

A Yes.

Q Lying on a newspaper?

A Yes, and the newspaper doubled over it; not, however, tied or fastened in any; it was loose.

Q Can you tell me certainly whether that was the editorial room or the business room of the paper?

A I do now know what they had there; it was in the same room that I arrested Spies.

Q How large a room was that?

A Well, I don't know.

Q Did it occupy the front of the building?

A I think it occupied the better part of the building.

Q And how deep?

A One place I should judge ---what they call the main room--- was perhaps twelve feet deep, and then there was a wing that ran back further.

Q Where was it that you found the tube and fulminating cap--- the fuse and fulminating cap?

A I found it in a box that was situated about half way in that room between where the revolver was and where Spies stood when he was arrested, which would leave it I should think about four or five feet from where he stood, and about the same distance from the stand where the revolver was.

Q Where was the box that you have mentioned-- upon the table or on the floor or where?

A It was on the floor and against the south wall, I should judge.

Q Was it a box that you could see readily on entering the room?

A Oh, yes.

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Q Was it that box which you have produced here?

A That is the one.

Q These empty shells that you speak of---where did you find them?

A I found the shells and the fulminating cap and a piece of fuse in the bottom of that box, and it was all full of sawdust on top.

Q How high up did the sawdust come in the box---did it come to the top?

A I should judge between three and four inches of the top.

Q When did you find that box there?

A I think that was on my third visit.

Q You did not find that on your first visit?

A I did not search for anything on my first visit.

Q Do you remember whether you saw it there on your first visit?

A No sir, I don't remember.

Q On what visit did you find the revolver?

A The same that I found the box.

Q Was there anybody in the room at the time you found the revolver and the box?

A Yes.

Q Anybody belonging to the establishment, or were they police officers?

A I think there were a couple of officers there and my recollection is there were a couple of Germans there; I do not know whether they belonged there or not; and Mr. Grinnell was there.

Q That you think was on your third visit?

A I think it was.

Q You think Mr. Grinnell was there at that time?

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A I am positive he was there when I found the revolver.

Q How long was that third visit after your first visit to the office?

A I think that visit was some time in the afternoon; perhaps two or half past two or Three o'clock; it might be later or it might be earlier.

Q So that according to your best recollection some five or six hours had intervened between your first visit and the visit on which you found the revolver and the box?

A I presume it was that time very near.

Q When you were there the second time, what did you do? On that Fifth of May?

A I went over along with a printer to pick out the type similar to the one in that "Revenge Circular."

Q Did you go in to this room in which you arrested Spies and Schwab on the occasion of your second visit?

A No sir.

Q You went up to the composing room?

A Yes, in company with a printer to pick up some type of the "Revenge Circular."

Q Who was the printer that went with you at that time?

A His name is John Conway.

Q Was he engaged in any way with the Arbeiter Zeitung office?

A Not that I know of.

Q About what o'clock was that second visit, when you went to the composing room?

A I should think that was near twelve O'clock.

Q Now, did you make any visit to that office that day after that third visit, which might have been about three

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A Yes, I went over there and took away a lot of red flags, and such stuff as that, along with some other officers.

Q When was it that you made that visit?

A I cannot fix the hour. I don't think that I looked at a timepiece all that day. You asked me who was in the room when I made the arrest that morning. I wish to say that Mrs. Schwab was there. I did not know her at the time, but I called at his house since and I recognized her as the woman who was there that morning.

Q When you went there first at nine o'clock in the morning business was apparently going forward in the ordinary course, was it not?

A Well, I would not know what the ordinary course in the office was, never having been there before.

Q Was it the appearance of that business office as if it was being conducted and going forward ordinarily?

A I should think by the appearance of things there, they were transacting business, or ready for it.

Q When you went up stairs in that composing room who did you find there in the afternoon?

A I don't think I was in the composing room in the afternoon. I think it was the forenoon.

Q About noon when you say you went there for the purpose of hunting type who were there?

A Thee were several men there.

Q At work setting type?

A Not when I was there; they

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all seemed to stare at me I don't know whether they were working or not.

Q What was the condition of the room? Was it like an ordinary printing office, or are you familiar with printing offices sufficiently to state?

A I am not. I have been in a few.

Q Who told you to take the red flags?

A I do not know who told me.

Q Where did you find them?

A They were principally in what they termed the library in that building; there is a room there called a library where they keep socialistic literature and they were stored in that room---mottoes and red flags.

Q Where was that room ---what part of te building?

A It was I think in the rear part---the second floor.

Q Was it on the same floor with the office where you arrested Spies and Schwab?

A My recollection is it was the second floor. I want to make a correction about Fischer. I think the time Fischer was arrested on the sidewalk was in the afternoon, on one of my afternoon visits. I cannot fix the hour for anything, but, however, I saw him in the morning and remarked about his long legs running up stairs, and some remarks passed, and my recollection is now that he was arrested in the afternoon when he was on the sidewalk, on one of my subsequent visits.

Q Were you peronally aware of the arrest of the compositors at the Arbeiter Zeitung office during the day?

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A I know they were arrested. Of course I went up to the Armory along with them when they were transferred up there.

Q How many of them were arrested, if you remember?

A Twenty or twenty-one I think.

Q On what occasion or visit was it that those arrests were made?

A I was not there.

Q You were not there at that time?

A No sir.

Q Was it before or after your visit about the middle of the afternoon of which you have already spoken when you found the revolver and the box?

A My recollection is that it was before I found the revolver.

Q You were not along at the time that those compositors were arrested?

A No sir.

Q Do you know by whom those arrests were made?

A I know it was Central Station officers; that is about all I do know about it.

Q Was there any resistance made by Spies or Schwab or either of them, as to going with you when you arrested them in the morning, and proposed to take them to the Central Station?

A No sir.

Q You say you found the "Revenge Circular" at that office, which has been introduced and identified? Am I correct as to that?

A Yes.

Q On which visit did you find that circular?

A That was the one I think when I found the revolver.

Q Was that the only copy of the circular that you found

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there at that time?

A I think there were more picked up in the other rooms, but I only handled this one. I took and marked it at the time with a pencil.

Q Are you clear about that---as to whether on that occasion any other copies of that circular were found?

A Not by me. I did not handle any.

Q Where did you find that circular?

A It was on one of the desks in the front room.

Q Lying on top of the desk was it?

A Yes.

Q I suppose you have stated all of the stuff that you got from the Arbeiter Zeitung on your different visits---the red flags, the box with its contents, the revolver, the circular and the prisoners?

A I think that is about all. I was there when the form and the type of the circular were found.

Q You had no search warrant at the time that any of these were taken?

A No sir.

Q Nor in going through this building and taking away these various things you had no warrant of any kind?

A Not a thing.

Q Do you know who that revolver belongs to?

A No sir, I do not personally.

Q Did you ever inquire as to whose property it was?

A I knew they would not tell me.

Q You had no warrant to carry it away?

A No sir.

Q As to the box and its contents, you had no warrant to

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carry it off?

A No.

Q You took it on your own responsibility?

A Yes sir.

Q When you got to the Central Station with Spies and Schwab what did you do with them?

A I took them into the front room and Lieutenant Shea sent out for the Chief, and in the mean time we searched him and took the personal effects away from him (pointing to Spies).

Mr. GRINNELL: I wish to bring your attention to one thing that is just brought to my attention---did you take that from him (referring to a bunch of keys)?

A That was among the things that I got in Spies' pocket.

Mr. BLACK: Q You took Mr. Spies keys out of his pocket?

A Everything I found--- little slips of paper and everything I found.

Q You literally went through him?

A Yes.

Q You had no warrant for anything of that kind?

A No sir.

Q You had no warrant for anything that you did that day, had you?

A No sir, my own responsibility; I will stand by it now.

Q Who was the Chief before you took Spies and Schwab?

A I did not take them before the Chief. I took them in the front room of the Detective Office. Lieut. Shea came in a few minutes afterwards and then we went off and came back with the Chief.

Q The Chief is who?

A Frederick Ebersold.

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Q You have stated in your direct examination that sometime that evening you went down with certain gentlemen named Knox and Graham--reporters--- to see Spies--went down where?

A To the cell-house of the station.

Q Where is the cell-house of the Central Station?

A In the basement.

Q Where are the cells in that building?

A In the basement.

Q In what part of the basement?

A It is under the room occupied by the Secretary of Police.

Q That is under the rear portion of the building, is it not?

A No sir; it is very near the center of the building and fronts on the inside court between the County and City building.

Q When were Spies and Schwab taken down there, if you know--- what hour of the day?

A Well, I don't know what time it was---I presume it was some time shortly after the arrest.

Q What o'clock in the evening was it when you went down there with Knox and Graham?

A I should judge about eight or nine o'clock.

Q They were confined together in one cell, were they?

A No, they were in separate cells.

Q So Fielden was in a separate cell, was he not?

A Yes.

Q How was it as to Fischer?

A I don't just recall about Fischer. I don't know whether he was down there or

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not. I am considerably confused about that Fischer business.

Q You don't know whether he was there or whether he was in one of the police stations?

A I don't know whether he was in the station or not at that time. I mind of seeing him in the morning and mind of seeing him when he was under arrest.

Q Do you know where the twenty compositors were that evening?

A No, I do not. I think they were at the Armory. I know they were not down stairs---not at the time that I went down with the reporters.

Q Where is the Armory located?

A It was on Harrison street near Pacific Avenue.

Q Right near the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Depot?

A Yes.

Q The only three that you are clear as to being in the Central Station cells that night are Spies, Fielden and Schwab?

A Yes. I am positive that those three were there in separate cells.

Q Now, can you tell me Spies' language in that interview that evening when he was in that cell, and when Knox and Graham were present.

A I can give the substance about. I did not hear all of the conversation; there was other people coming down and bothering there. Anything that would interest me I would prompt the reporters to ask it over again.

Q Give me any of his language that you can remember that

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did interest you sufficiently to call for its repetition?

A I was interested in who the young man was who called him off the wagon.

Q And he said it was a young turner, but he didn't care to give you the name that night?

A Yes, because he said the police would arrest him.

Q When after that was it that he did give you that name?

A I afterwards got Graham to one side and told Graham to work out of him who that young turner was, and I got it from Graham or himself shortly afterwards.

Q You did not know personally whether Spies gave that name or not?

A My recollection is that Graham told him if he denied this man it looked bad, and sometime afterward he gave his name.

Q Your recollection is, then, that Spies gave the name to you upon Graham's persuasion?

A Well, gave it to Graham when I was present.

Q During that same interview?

A I think it was.

Q How long was that interview?

A Perhaps half an hour.

Q What else was there in that conversation that so far interested you as to fix itself in your memory so that you can now repeat Spies' words or about what he said?

A He said in answer to a question of Mr. Graham's, he said while he was in favor of the action taken at the Haymarket he thought it was premature at the time, that the time for revolution had not arrived; they were not ready, and it was done by a hot-head that could not wait long enough.

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Q What was Spies' language in that connection?

A I cannot use the words; that is the sentiment, and perhaps the words.

Q Was that address to Graham, you say?

A Graham and Knox were both present.

Q Which was it addressed to?

A I do not know; they were both asking questions.

Q Which of them asked the question which lead to that?

A My recollection is that Graham carried on the major part of the conversation.

Q And your recollection is that that was the substance of Spies' statement in that behalf?

A Yes sir.

Q But you cannot give his words?

A Oh, I would not undertake to give his words positively.

Q He said that the bomb had been thrown by some hot-head who couldn not wait?

A Yes.

Q That he himself did not think that the time had arrived for such warfare?

A It was a little premature, not quite ready.

Q Now, have you stated all the conversation that you remember in which Fielden took part that night ---I am bringing you now to the conversation at Fielden's cell?

A I did not hear all of the conversation; there was a man came down there and got very boisterous---talkative---and I requested an officer to take him out.

Q Have you stated all that you remember?

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A All that I remember that struck me as peculiar or that I wanted to remember at the time.

Q You have stated all that you do in fact remember?

A I have stated the substance of it. I was interested in his narrative of how he got along after he was wounded and where he went.

Q You were interested in discovering this circuit that he made?

A I was anxious to know; it struck me as very peculiar that he would go back to the office again after he was wounded. I remember at the time that I said that he had extraordinary nerve; that most men would go home and ask for a doctor; he said he wanted to see how many of his comrades were hurt.

Q That is all that you remember of the conversation with Fielden?

A He acknowledged speaking; he said he spoke there, and he talked with the reporters about the police interfering with them.

Q And what did he say to the reporters about the interference of the police?

A Well, they came up there to disperse them and they had no business to, he said. He claimed that they had a right to talk and say what they pleased.

Q He claimed also that the meeting was a peaceable meeting, didn't he--- a quiet meeting?

A He didn't claim that they were disorderly.

Q He claimed that they were quite to the contrary?

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A He claimed that they could say what they wished and act how they pleased under the Constitution and they should not be interfered with; it was free speech.

Q Didn't he also claim that the meeting was a peaceable and quiet meeting?

A I don't think that was ever questioned. I don't think that he ever claimed that it was quiet or disorderly; it was not necessary to talk about that question.

Q That was taken for granted then--- that it was not disorderly?

A It was taken for granted that it was like all of their meetings---disorderly, of the worst kind.

Q Who took it for granted?

A I did.

Q Then it was not taken for granted by Fielden?

A You asked me the question.

Q What did Fielden say about it?

A I told you.

Q He claimed that they had a right to free speech?

A Yes.

Q Was that all that was said by Fielden, so far as you can remember?

A That is all that I can remember of at the present time.

Q You say Schwab did not say anything much?

A Schwab talked considerably but I did not stand there.

Q There was nothing then that you remember?

A There were some people that came down and were getting disorderly and I went away. I mind of Schwab giving a history of his life on the start, and then I went away; he spoke

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about the different places he had been at and occupations he had been in. I think I went away than.

Q Now, coming to the conversation that you had with Fischer of which you have spoken. Take up please the matter of that fulminating cap. When was that cap found in his pocket, and by whom, if you know?

A I know from the officer telling me.

Q You do not know anything further than that?

A I did not see the officer take it.

Q When did you see that cap if at all?

A I think the day of his arrest the of ficers showed it.

Q All that you know about that personally then is that on that day that Fischer was arrested and after his arrest the officer showed you a fulminating cap with the statement that he had got that out of Fischer's pocket?

A It was shown in the station to a large number around there.

Q And you say that it looked bright and fresh?

A It looked bright and fresh; this one in the box is to the contrary.

Q This one in the box when you found it did not look fresh and bright?

A No sir.

Q It looked as if it might have laid there for a good while?

A Yes, it got tarnished and did not have its color--

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-its original manufactured brightness.

Q Did Chief Ebersold say anything in your presence to Spies or Fielding on the occasion of his coming in first when you had them under arrest?

A. Yes. The Chief was quite excited and talked in German and made motions, and I got between them, and I told him this was not the time or place to act that way.

Q You quieted him down a little?

A I did; I took that liberty.

Q You did not understand what he was saying fully? You did not understand German well enough to know it?

A No sir, I can understand a few things.

Q A few cuss words?

A Yes sir, principally.

Q There were a good many of them?

A. No. I don't think there was.

Q There were enough to notice them?

A. No. My understanding of the word was that it compared a man to a dog, or something low.

Q Addressing these two that were there under arrest at the time?

A Yes.

Re-Direct Examination by

Q State whether or not you saw Rudolph Schnaubelt there at that Arbeiter Zeitung Office?

A. I saw a man there that I afterwards saw a photograph of that I was satisfied was the same person.

Q You took those keys from August Spies at that time (indicating)?

A. Yes, and handed them to Jones to see if they would fit August Spies' drawer, where the dynamite was found. I gave

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them to him for that purpose.

On motion of defendants' counsel, the last sentence of the last answer ordered stricken out.

Q You say you were a policeman for how many years?

A Going on six.

Q Were you in the army during the war?

A Yes, three years.

Q As to Schnaubelt, I understand your position is this: You saw a man there that day that looked like the photograph of Schnaubelt. Do you know personally that that is a photograph of Schnaubelt?

A No, I did not see it taken. His sister told me it was.

On motion of defendants' counsel, the last sentence of the last answer ordered stricken out.

Q You saw a man that looked liked that photograph?

A Yes.

Adjourned to 10 A.M. to-morrow.

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