Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1. Direct examination and redirect by Mr. Ingham. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified through an interpreter. Testified on the behalf of the People. People's Exhibit 15 (vol.I 159) introduced into evidence. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Most, Johann (vol.I 159), weapons and explosives (vol.I 163), bombs (vol.I 162), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.I 149), "Revenge" circular (vol.I 145), meaning of "Ruhe" (vol.I 158), meaning of "Y" (vol.I 156), McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.I 143), Zepf's Hall (vol.I 145), eight-hour movement (vol.I 148), arrangements made for the Haymarket meeting (vol.I 143), Lehr und Wehr Verein (vol.I 141), Carpenters' Union (vol.I 161), Spies, August (vol.I 152), Parsons, Albert (vol.I 152), Lingg, Louis (vol.I 142), Schwab, Michael (vol.I 152), Fielden, Samuel (vol.I 152), Engel, George (vol.I142), Neebe, Oscar (vol.I 152), Fischer, Adolph (vol.I 142), witnesses who were indicted and/or arrested for murder or conspiracy (vol.I 141), People's Exhibit 15 (vol.I 159).
Testimony of Bernardt Schrade, 1886 July 17.
Volume I, 140-167, 28 p.
Carpenter, member of Lehr und Wehr Verein; German immigrant.
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Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Direct examination and redirect by Mr. Ingham. Cross-examination by Mr. Foster. Testified through an interpreter. Testified on the behalf of the People. People's Exhibit 15 (vol.I 159) introduced into evidence.
Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): Most, Johann (vol.I 159), weapons and explosives (vol.I 163), bombs (vol.I 162), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.I 149), "Revenge" circular (vol.I 145), meaning of "Ruhe" (vol.I 158), meaning of "Y" (vol.I 156), McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.I 143), Zepf's Hall (vol.I 145), eight-hour movement (vol.I 148), arrangements made for the Haymarket meeting (vol.I 143), Lehr und Wehr Verein (vol.I 141), Carpenters' Union (vol.I 161), Spies, August (vol.I 152), Parsons, Albert (vol.I 152), Lingg, Louis (vol.I 142), Schwab, Michael (vol.I 152), Fielden, Samuel (vol.I 152), Engel, George (vol.I142), Neebe, Oscar (vol.I 152), Fischer, Adolph (vol.I 142), witnesses who were indicted and/or arrested for murder or conspiracy (vol.I 141), People's Exhibit 15 (vol.I 159).
a witness for The People, being duly sworn, was examined in chief by Mr. Ingham, through Mr. Gauss, as Interpreter, and testified as follows:
Q What is your name??
A Bernardt Schrade.
Q Where do you live?
A 581 Milwaukee Avenue.
Q What is your business?
A I am a carpenter.
Q How long have you lived in this country?
A It will be five years in the fall.
Q Where were you born?
A In western Prussia.
Q Have you always followed the business of a carpenter?
Q How do you spell your name?
Q For whom do you work?
A I cannot recall the name.
Q Where do you work?
A On Washington Boulevarde.
Q Working at your trade?
A Yes sir.
Q Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of any Socialistic Organization?
Q Have you ever been a member of any Socialistice Organizarion?
Q Were you ever a member of the Lehr and Wehr Verein?
A From about six months ago until now.
Q Are you a member of it now?
A No; it does not exist any more.
Q Do you know a man by the name of Waller?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Gottfried Waller?
A Yes, I know him.
Q Were you present at a meting at Grief's Hall, on Lake Street, on the evening of the 3rd of May, Monday evening?
Q Where was the meeting held?
A 54 Lake Street.
Q What part of the building?
A In the basement.
Q What time in the evening did you get to the meeting?
A About half past nine.
Q Did you go alone or in cmpany with others?
A No, I went with several together.
Q Who were with you when you went?
A I do not know them all. I know one.
Q Who was that?
A One that is indictd with me, Haagemann.
Q How did you get into the hall?
A We went down. Nothing kept us back, and we went in
Q Why did they let you in?
Q When you got down there was the meeting already in order?
Q Who was presiding?
Q Do you remember who was present?
A Yes; I know some of them; I don't know them all.
Q About how many were present all together?
A I reckon about thirty or thirty-five people.
Q Now, Give the names of those whom you can remember?
A I, myself, Waller, Engle, Fischer and Thielen, the Lehmanns.
Q What were their names?
A I saw the little one there, the larger one I don't know---I don't know his first name.
Q Do you know Donafeld?
A Yes, he was there.
A I didn't see him, I cannot tell; maybe that he was there; I cannot remember.
Q Do you remember whether Lingg was there?
A No he was not there.
Q Who was speaking when you went in ?
A Nobody was speaking.
Q Did anybody speak after you went in?
A No one. The presiding officer was explaining what had been spoken about until then.
Q What did the presiding officer say had been spoken
Mr. BLACK: Before the translation comes in, of course I want the same objection as to all the testimony in behalf of the defendants other than Engel and Fischer.
Mr. INGHAM: Translate the wuestion.
A He stated the objects of the meeting. He said in explanation that so many men at the McCormick factory had been shot dead by the police; he said that a mass meeting was to be held at Haymarket Square, and that they were to come prepared to---
MR. ZEISLER: Well,---
THE COURT: Finish the interpretation before any interruption.
THE INTERPRETER: That they were to come prepared in case the police should meddle with the meeting, interfere with the meeting.
Mr. ZEISLER: I think the translation is not quite correct.
THE COURT: Suggest the emndment that you want, and see whether the interpreter won't agree with you.
Mr. Zeisler: He did not say "Come prepared to the meeting." He said; "We should be prepared in case the police should attack us, and he said" "Uebergreife."
THE INTERPRETER: Well, that would be "interfere" in this case.
MR. ZEISLER: "Uebergreife" is not "interfere". My suggestion is, first, that the witness did not say "Come prepared to the Haymarket market meeting," but "Be prepared," and in the second place, that it was not, "If the police should interfere with us," but the witness used, "Uebergreife" meaning, that the police should do more than they are entitled to, or have a right to under the circumstances.
THE INTERPRETER: Would go beyond theri bounds.
MR. INGHAM: The only difference is between "Come prepared" and "Be prepared".
THE COURT: And also that "If the police should interfere", is not so strong a version as ought to be used in the translation, perhaps.
THE INTERPRETER: "Go beyond their bounds" it literally means, but I gave his sense.
Mr. INGHAM: That is, used in connection with the other words of the sentence.
THE INTERPREYER: I gave what he meant.
Q What else was said?
A That was all that the presiding officer explained. Afterwards we talked among ourselves, yet, and then the meeting adjourned--- parted.
Q Did you hear anything said about assembling in other parts of the city?
Q How did you come to go to that meeting?
A Well, I had been to the Carpenter's meeting, and there became the
subject matter of the conversation about what had transpired at McCormick's meeting, and it was said that the members of the Lehr and Wehr Verein should go around to the meeting on Lake Street.
Q Did you see any circular at that Carpenters Meeting?
A Yes, they were distributed there.
Q Look at the circular I now show you, marked Exhibit 2, (also marked People's Exhibit 6, in Vol. of Exhibits hereto attached), is that the paper which you saw?
A Yes; that is it.
Q How long did you stay at that meeting?
A I was there from eight until half past nine.
Q Who brought those circulars to the meeting?
A I think it was a woman.
Q O, no, Rau?
A O, Rau.
MR. GRINNELL: Balthazer Rau?
A Rau, yes; Balthazer Rau; it was Balthazer Rau.
MR. INGHAM: Q Where was that Carpenters' meeting held?
A Corner of Desplaines and Clinton streets.
MR. GRINNELL: That could not be Desplaines and Clinton.
MR. INGHAM: But at this place?
A In Zepf's Hall.
Q How long did you stay at the meeting at 54 Lake Street?
A I stayed about half an hour; from half past nine until, about a quarter after ten.
Q Were you at a meeting on the Sunday previous?
on Emma Street?
Q Where was that meeting held?
A Well, I cannot tell the house number. It is known under the name of Bohemian Hall.
Q Is that a saloon?
Q What time did you get there?
A In the neighborhood of half past nine in the forenoon.
Q How did you come to go there?
A A certain man by the name of Krueger called for me, got me.
Q Do you know what Krueger's first name is?
A No; I do not know his first name.
Q Well, was he the big or little Krueger?
A It was the big one.
Q Who were at the meeting?
A Well, I cannot name them all; I do not know them all.
Q Name as many as you can.
A I was there, Waller, Krueger, Fischer, Engel, and Greeneberg. Those are all that I know; I don't know the others.
Q Who was the chairman of the meeting?
A I do not know him.
Q Were those present members of any organization or society?
MR. BLACK: For the purpose of record, of course, I desire,
in behalf of the defendants, other than Fischer and Engel, to object to the testimony, concerning the occurrences at the Sunday meeting. I understand that the objection is overruled.
THE COURT: Yes, but then, he has said that he did not know who the persons were that were there, a great many of them. Then the question now is, whether they were members of any particular society or not. If he did not know them how can that be competent?
MR. INGHAM: He knew some of them, and he can answer as to those he knew.
THE COURT: Well, so many as he did know.
MR. INGHAM: Repeat the question (Question repeated).
A Those that were there present belonged to the second company of the Lehr and Wehr Verein, of the Northwestern Group.
MR. INGHAM: (To Interpreter) Did he say "Of the Northwestern Group", or, "and"?
THE INTERPRETER: I understood him to say "of".
MR. ZEISLER: He said "and".
MR. INGHAM: Two organizations there.
THE INTERPRETER: "and".
Q What was said there?
Objected to; objection overruled and exception.
A Well, we talked about the condition of the working
men, after the 1st of May, and one thing gave the other and the remark was made that it might not go off so easy after the 1st of May, and if it should not that they would help themselves and each other.
Q What else was said?
A Well, that is about all.
Q Was anything said as to how they should help themselves?
MR. SOLOMON: Let me suggest, Mr. Interpreter, if the witness makes any reply, you reinterpret the reply to the attorney and then he will suggest the additional question.
THE INTERPRETER: I was giving him a definition of the term, that is all.
MR. SOLOMON: Just translate it--that would be the proper way.
THE COURT: The question is, was there anything said as to how they should help themselves. The interpretation should be literal. If the witness does not understand it, let the attorneynmake a new question.
THE INTERPRETER: The witness asked, How am I to understand "Was there anything said as to how they were to help themselves?"
MR. INGHAM: I cannot very well say without leading him.
THE COURT: Well, what would they do to help themselves?
MR. INGHAM: Well, put that away--what would they do to help themselves?
THE COURT: Did they say?
A Yes, of course. It was said that if they were to get into a conflict with the police that they were to mutually enlist themselves, assist themselves to make an attack.
MR. INGHAM: To make an attach on whom?
A Upon the police.
Q Was anything said about where they should attach the police?
A No; that I do not know.
Q Have you given all you can remember of what was said?
A As much as I know, yes.
Q What was said about Wicker Park?
A Well, it was said that the members of the Northwestern Group should go there in case that it should get so far as that the police would make an attack.
Q Was anything said about what the members of the NorthWestern Group should do if there was any trouble with the police?
A Yes. It was explained that they should defend themselves, as much as possible if it should come to that.
Q How should they defend themselves?
A As well as anyone could. If he had anything with him we should use it.
Q Was anything said about what they should have with them?
Q Anything said about dynamite?
A No; nothing was said about it--mot as much as I know.
Q Was the word "stuff" used?
A No sir; that
I do not know.
Q Do you remember whether anything was said about telegraph wires?
Q Was anything said about the firemen, the fire department?
A Yes; they were talked about.
Q What was said about them?
A The revolutionary movement was talked about. And it was remarked that the firemen could do much in such a case.
Q Was anything said as to what should be done with the firemen?
Q What was said about the firemen?
A Well, it was said that if a large mass of people was standing upon th street, that if the firemen came they could easily disperse them.
Q Was anything said as to what should be done with the firemen in such a case?
A Well, it was said the best thing to annihilate them, or to cut through their hose, and so forth, that they could not do anything.
Q What does the word "annihilate" mean?
THE INTERPRETER: Vernichten--he used the word, annihilate.
Q It means the same as the English "annihilate"?
A Oh yes--vernichten, the same thing.
Q Were you present at the Haymarket Square?
Q What time did you go to the Square?
A I do not
know exactly. It was about half past seven.
Q Who did you go with?
MR. BLACK: Hadn't you better fix the date of that?
MR. INGHAM: Well, on the evening when the bomb was thrown
A Well, I went with a certain man named Thielen, --I think is his name -from the second company of the Lehr and Wehr Verein.
Q The same company to which you belong?
Q What time did you get to the Square?
A It was about half past eight.
Q What did you do after you got there?
A Well, I walked up and down and looked at things; there was somebody there yet. I walked up and down.
Q Up and down on what streets?
A On Randolph street and the Haymarket.
Q Were you on Desplaines street?
A Yes, at the corner.
Q Did you hear any of the speaking?
Q Who did you hear speak?
A Well, I heard Spies and Fielden; I heard them all speak.
Q Where were you when the bomb was thrown?
A At 173 West Randolph.
Q At whose place?
A A saloon of Mr. Stoeckenius.
Q Why had you gone to that saloon? Why didn't you listen to the speeches?
Objected to; objection overruled; exception by the defendants.
A Well, a rain came up and a shower, and I went away.
Q How long have you known Engel?
A About as long as I belong to the Lehr and Wehr Verein.
Q Do you know Fischer?
Q How long?
A About some time back--about nine months.
Q Do you know Louis Lingg?
Q How long?
A Well, about a year.
Q Do you know Fielden?
A Yes; I know him.
Q How long?
A Well, about two years.
Q How long have you known Parsons, if you have known him at all?
A I know him, too.
Q How long?
A About two years.
Q Do you know Schwab?
A Yes, too.
Q How long?
A Two years.
Q Do you know Spies?
Q How long have you known him?
A Well, also two years.
Q Do you know Neebe?
A Yes, indeed.
Q How long have you known him?
A Well, two years also.
Q Did you see any of those persons present at the Hay--market Square?
A Yes sir; I saw Spies, and the three
gentlemen that spoke.
Q Any of the others?
A Engel and Fischer I saw about an hour previous to, the meeting.
Q Where did you see them?
A I saw them on the right hand side, the corner of Desplaines and Randolph streets.
Q Were they together?
Q After the Hay market meeting was over, after the bomb was thrown, where did you go?
A I went home.
Q Where was your home?
A 581 Milwaukee Avenue.
Q Did you meet Krueger on your way home?
A Which Krueger?
Q Well, either one of them?
A Yes; I met the little one, August.
Q Where did you meet him?
A In the saloon.
Q Which direction was he coming from? --Oh, you met him in the saloon?
A He was there.
Q Did you meet the bigger Krueger, the larger one?
Q Where did you meet him?
A In the saloon, also
Q What time of the night was that?
A Well, that was about--it might have been 11 o'clock.
Q While you were a member of the Lehr and Wehr Verein where did you meet? Or where did your company meet?
A In Thalia Hall, Milwaukee Avenue.
Q Where is Thalia Hall?
A Well, I cannot tell the
number exactly. It is between Cornell and Augusta Streets.
Q What did you do? Or, what did the Company do when you left?
A Well, we drilled.
Q Drilled in what?
A Well, we had our exercise, marched in the hall, and so on,--made movements.
Q Did you have any arms?
Q What kind of arms?
A Springfield rifles.
Q Where did you keep the rifles?
A We bought them from the factory.
MR. SOLOMON: I move to strike that out. That is not responsive to the other question.
MR. INGHAM: Well, it don't make any difference.
Q Where did you keep them?
A At home.
Q What was the Lehr and Wehr Verein for?
MR. BLACK: I think that I perhaps ought in connection with this witness, as on the others, to interpose an objection to this general testimony as to the conduct and action of this witness as a member of the Lehr and Wehr Verein, or otherwise, in behalf of all the defendants. It is not necessary to argue the motion. I understand it to be covered by your Honro's ruling of yesterday afternoon.
Objection overruled and exception by defendants.
Q (Last question read).
A We had our military drill--for pleasure. They were mostly members that had been soldiers in the old country, and we also were drilling here,
MR. ZEISLER: "For our fun".
THE INTERPRETER: Our fun-- pleasure.
mR. ZEISLER: The last part of his answer was, "for fun".
MR. INGHAM: Did you ever march on the streets publicly with the arms?
Q Why not.
Objected to, as calling for a possible motive.
THE COURT: If there was any discussion among themselves as to not marching upon the streets, what was said about it wouldbe admissible. But the uncommunicated thoughts of this witness as to why not, would not be.
MR. INGHAM: How often were you in the habit of drilling in Thalia Hall?
A Once in a week, at times.
Q How were the members of your Company known--by their names, or by numbers?
A The members as we were there together knew each other. But when we were put upon the list each one hadhis number.
Q What was your number?
A Thirty two.
Q How many companies were there in this city of the Lehr and Wehr Verein, so far as you know?
Q How many members were there so far as you know?
A In the (the) whole, I don't know.
Q When you were to the meeting at 54 West Lake Street did you see any circulars?
Q What circulars?
A The same that I saw here, the same one (indicating "Exhibit 2".)
Q Do you know Schnaubelt?
A Not personally, no.
Q Know him by sight?
Q Do you remember whether he was at 54 West Lake Street or not?
A No sir; I cannot tell, positively.
Q Look at the paper which I now show you, marked "Exhibit 3" (showing witness)--see if you ever saw that before?
MR. BLACK: I would like to have some designation as to what you have pointed at?
MR. INGHAM: I have pointed out the ypsilon.
THE WITNESS: I saw it in the paper.
Q Where were you when you saw it?
A When I read the paper?
Q But where were you, at what place?
A I was in a saloon.
Q Whose saloon?
A Thalia Hall.
Q Was that before you went to 54 West Lake Street?
A Yes sir.
Q What does that mean?
A Well, I see here three letters. That is a sign for the armed section when they were to meet.
Q Were to meet where?
A 54 Lake Street.
Q What do you mean by the "armed section"?
A Well, I cannot explain that, what it was.
Q Can't you tell what the armed section was?
A There were certain members of certain societies who had bought weapons with which they were practicing continually.
MR. ZEISLER: "Immer" does not mean continually.
THE INTERPRETER: It does not? Immer--it has no other meaning.
MR. ZEISLER: I will, leave it to Mr. Furthman.
MR. FURTHMAN: I will ask you for a better word.
MR. ZEISLER: In this connection it means, from time to time. It does not mean continually.
THE INTERPRETER: It never means from time to time. It is the same word as the English "ever". It is the very same word, your Honor.
MR. ZEISLER: Well, that is one translation of it, if your Honor please.
THE INTERPRETER: There is no other possible, your Honor.
MR. BLACK: I would like to ask, Mr. Furthman, whether in his answer the witness mentioned that there were certain men of the trades unions-whether the words Trades Union were used.
THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Trades Union, certain societies, Trades Union.
MR. ZEISLER: You might perhaps, ask him whether he means continually.
MR. GRINNELL: You can ask him.
MR. INGHAM: Whenever the Interpreter satisfies himself as to what he means, we are satisfied.
THE INTERPRETER: I am simply giving the literal word. You cannot find it in any dictionary any dictionary meaning.
MR. INGHAM:,--Look at the paper which I now show you, marked Exhibit 4, (also marked People's Exhibit 8, in Vol. of Exhibits hereto attached). (Showing witness). Look at the words "Briefkasten" and "Ruhe". Did you ever see those before?
Q When you heard the statement made in the meeting at 54 West Lake Street, did you hear anything said about the word "Ruhe"?
Q Look at the book which I now show you? (Handing witness book). Have you ever seen books similar to that?
A I saw them sold.
A In meetings.
Q In what meetings?
(The book shown witness is here marked "People's Exhibit 6" for identification.)
MR. BLACK:, Until something further occurs I will object. I do not see its relevancy. It is not apparent to me. I have not seen the book--don't know what it is. I do not
see that it is material to this issue, whether he has ever seen a book, that we have not seen, or what has ever been done with it.
(The book is here handed to counsel for defendants.)
MR. BLACK: I have never seen that before.
MR. INGHAM: It is Herr Most's Science of Revolutionary Warfare.
MR. FOSTER: Are the defendants the authors of this work, do you claim?
MR. INGHAM: Oh no.
MR. FOSTER: I do not exactly see what a work of Johann Most had to do with it
MR. GRINNELL: We have not offered it yet.
MR. BLACK: That I understand. I simply object to this line of testimony at the present, about a book not offered.
MR. INGHAM: I simply wanted it marked so that when it was offered we could identify it, as having been seen by this witness.
THE COURT: Well, let some of the defendants' counsel, if they choose, put some mark upon it, by which they will recognize it when it is presented again.
MR. INGHAM: Now, where have you seen that book offered for sale?
Objected to, for the reason that the book is not offered in evidence, may not be offered in evidence, and is not connected with any of the defendants.
THE COURT: Let it come in. They have to go a step at a time. If the book was sold in meetings then how far the persons connected with the meetings adopted the sentiments of the book may become a question for the jury.
MR. BLACK: Well, wouldn't it be material first of all to know who sold it and who bought it?
MR. INGHAM: That is just what I am asking and trying to find out. If the book does not get in there is no harm done by it, except the time taken up.
Defendants' counsel excepted to the admission of said testimony as immaterial, and incompetent.
Q Now, where have you seen it sold?
A In the meetings.
Q Meetings of what?
A In the workingmens meetings.
Q At what places?
MR. BLACK: Of course it is understood that this is all subject to objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. BLACK: Before we proceed to, cross-examination I want to make the same motion to strike out the testimony of this witness. And particularly also to strike out so much of the testimony, as has been objected to. Both motions overruled and exception.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. FOSTER: (Q) Do you mean to say that you know the defendants personally, by having conversations and communications with them, or do you simply know them by sight?
A I only know them by sight.
Q You never had any business or conversation with Mr. Spies, did you?
Q Or Parsons?
Q Or Fielden?
Q Or Neebe?
Q Or Schwab?
Q Or Lingg?
A We were not on terms of friendship but we have belonged to one society, Workingmen's society of carpenters.
Q The Carpenters' Union, is it?
Q Now, are any of the defendants to your knowledge members of the Lehr and Wehr Verein?
Q How long were you at the Hall, at Zepf's Hall-- Greif's Hall, on the Monday night previous to the Haymarket meeting?
A About three-quarters of an hour.
Q And you say that there were from thirty to thirty-five persons there?
A Yes, as much as I could guess.
Q You took a seat there I presume and listened to what was said?
Q You paid attention to all that was done while you were there?
Q How long were you at the Sunday meeting previous?
A I was there from about half past nine until about half past ll.
Q And what was discussed there was that if the police made an attack upon the workingmen they would help the workingmen to resist it, was it?
Q And if the firemen helped, then you would cut the house?
A Yes sir.
Q Was there anything said about dynamite?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q At any of the meetings?
Q Anything said about bombs?
Q Not any of the meetings?
A Not while I was present.
Q Then you did not hear that bombs were to be thrown at the police, did you, or at the firemen? At either of these meetings?
A Not as long as I was present there was nothing said about that.
Q Well, and while you were present on Monday night at the meeting, they talked about how they could help the workingmen, didn't they?
Q And nothing was said about bombs?
A Not during the time that I was there.
Q And nothing was said about dynamite?
Q And nothing was said about a meeting at any particular night to throw bombs or dynamite?
Q Then it was not agreed to throw bombs the next night at the Haymarket meeting?
A Not as long as I was there.
Q Then it was not agreed to use dynamite in destroying the police at the next night in the Haymarket?
A There was nothing said about that while I was present.
Q You went to the Haymarket meeting?
Q How long were you there, altogether?
A Well, I was there from about half past seven until the bomb was thrown.
Q I thought you said when the bomb was thrown that you were at the saloon?
A Then I was at the Haymarket in a saloon.
Q Oh, you were in a saloon on the Haymarket, were you?
Q Did you go there with any dynamite in your pocket?
A No sir; I don't know dynamite.
Q Did you have a bomb?
Q Did any one insist or ask you to take a bomb to that meeting?
Q Did you know anyone was going to take a bomb to that meeting?
Q Did you know there would be trouble at that meeting, or expect there would be trouble at that meeting?
I knew that much that when the police should come to attack the workingmen that each one should help themselves the best way they could.
Q How were they to help themselves?--that is, was there an agreement that the members of this organization should go with bombs?
A Not as much as I know that was not commanded.
Q You did not take a bomb?
A No; I don't know any.
Q You were not requested to take one?
Q You do not know of anybody taking one, do you?
Q Nor do not know who threw one?
Q At the time that you left the meeting was it quiet and peaceable?
A Yes; that is at the Haymarket, you mean?
Q Yes, at the Haymarket meeting?
A Yes, The speaker was speaking and I left and everything was quiet.
Q Did you anticipate any trouble at the time you left?
Q Then at the time the bomb was thrown you had no idea of any difficulty or any trouble at the Haymarket meeting, but was quietly sitting in a saloon?
Q You say that you had seen the notice in the Arbeiter Zeitung "Y, Come Monday night", do you?
A Yes sir, I saw that.
Q Did you ever see that before for the other meetings of the Lehr and Wehr Verein?
Q Wasn't that the way of calling all business meetings? and all meetings of that Association?
Q Wasn't that understood and agreed by the Association, and had it not been for months that the meetings were to be called by that kind of notice?
Q Were any of the defendants members of the Lehr and Wehr Verein that you know of?
Q Any of the defendants here before you? Any of these eight defendants?
A They do not belong to the Lehr and Wehr Verein.
Q And you say that during the three quarters of an hour that you were there, at Greif's Hall, that you did not hear anything about the word "Ruhe", or any particular significance of that word?
Q Now, you say that there was no trouble talked about on the Monday night meeting that was expected on any particular night, do you?
A Not as long as I was there.
Q Not as long as you were there, but you had talked before that that if the police attacked the laboring men that they would resist?
Q And that is what you mean when you say that you expected if the police had attacked the meeting that may be there might be some trouble, is it?
A Yes sir.
Q Then it was not agreed that there should be trouble Monday night, or Tuesday, Tuesday night?
A As much as I know, not.
Q And when you went away from the meeting there had been no trouble?
Q And you did not know there was going to be any trouble?
Q You did not expect any trouble?
A Well, not beyond that when the police would attack, we knew that there would be some trouble.
Q Were you expecting trouble at the time you left; or did you go as you stated before, because there was a rainstorm coming up?
A Only on account of the approach of the storm, I went away.
Q Did you see one of the defendants at that meeting except the three speakers, Spies, Fielden and Parsons?
A Yes. As much as I noticed, Fischer and Engel, that is an hour before the meeting, not directly at the meeting.
Q I am not talking about an hour before, but during the meeting and at the meeting--did you see any except Spies, Parsons and Fielden?
Q Mr Schrade, what time did the meeting begin, according to your best judgment--the Haymarket meeting?
A Well, as much as I know, it might have been 9 o'clock. It may have
been after--I cannot state precisely.
Q How long was it before the bomb was thrown that you were at the meeting?
A About five minutes.
Q About how many people according to your best judgement were at the meeting when you left?
A As much as I could guess there was about two hundred.
Re-Direct Examination by
Q After you were arrested--or, I do not know whether you were arrested or not,--but did you ever make a statement in writing to Lieutenant Schaack, or Mr. Furthman, Officer Loewenstein and Lieut. Scheutler--
Objected to as not proper rebuttal, and as an attempt on the part of the people to impeach their own witness. Objection sustained.