Haymarket Affair Digital Collection

Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript no. 1.
Testimony of Hugh Hume, 1886 July 28.

Volume K, 375-404, 30 p.
Hume, Hugh.
Reporter, Chicago Inter-Ocean.

Direct examination by Mr. Grinnell. Cross-examination by Captain Black. Testified on behalf of the Prosecution, People of the State of Illinois.

Interviewed August Spies and Samuel Fielden after their arrests. Testified on various topics (page numbers provide a partial guide): items confiscated from the Arbeiter-Zeitung office or the defendants' homes (vol.K 378), socialists and/or socialism (vol.K 378), plans for warfare against the police and/or capitalists (vol.K 377), advocating revolution (vol.K 377), "Attention Workingmen" flier (vol.K 392), the Arbeiter-Zeitung (vol.K 378), McCormick Reaper Works strike, meeting or riot (vol.K 376), religion (Catholicism) (vol.K 376), Spies' version of the Haymarket events (vol.K 376), questioning of Spies after his arrest (vol.K 375), Schwab's version of the events of May 4, 1886 (vol.K 380), Fielden, Samuel (vol.K 375), Fielden's version of the Haymarket events (vol.K 379).

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HUGH HUME, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the People; was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell and testified as follows:

Q What is your name?

A Hugh Hume.

Q You are a newspaper reporter?

A Yes, sir.

Q On what paper?

A On the Inter Ocean.

Q Were you on the Inter Ocean on May last?

A I was.

Q Did you see Mr. Fielden or any of these people after their arrest?

A I did, sir.

Q Where?

A In the sweat-box at the central station.

Q What time?

A I saw them I think about twelve o'clock, a little after twelve o'clock on Thursday morning.

Q You mean by sweat-box the cells down stairs at the central station?

A Yes, sir.

Q About twleve or one o'clock?

A Yes, sir.

Q Between the fifth and sixth?

A Between the fifth and sixth, yes, sir.

Q Did you interview Spies or have any talk with him?

A Yes, sir, I had a talk with Spies.

Q Give me the questions asked by you and what was said by him?

MR. BLACK: This all goes in subject to objection which has been here to fore presented to the court.

MR. BLACK: Q When was it?

A It was a little after twelve I think on Thursday morning.

MR. GRINNELL: That was the sixth?

A The sixth, yes, sir. I told Mr. Spies I came down to have a little talk with him about this thing. Mr. Spies was quite

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willing to talk, as he always was. I asked him if he had been at the meeting--- I knew that he had been--- he said he had.

I asked him his purpose in going up there. He said he had gone up there to refute the statements of the capatalistic press in regard to what he had said at McCormick's, or in regard to what they had said about his speech at McCormick's. He said that up to McCormick's he had been talking to a lot of people there who he could not influence. He says: "They are all good Catholics, and I have not much power over those Catholics. They are not much in favor of our class of people." Those were not the words but very near it.

Q Did he say anything about speaking in that speech at McCormick's?

A Yes, sir.

Q What if anything the crowd said?

A He then came down to the Haymarket business. I said to him: "I understand that they were willing to hang Mr. McCormick when you mentioned his name up there?" Mr. Spies said yes, he thought they were. He said they showed a disposition to do it. However he did not give the order He said: "I told them not to make any threats of that kind." He said: "When you want to do a thing of that kind, don't talk so much about it but go off and do it."

Q Go on and state what else he said?

A He then said that the people had reached a condition or stage or state of affairs where they were willing to do any violence, and ready to do it; and I asked him if he had not advocated that that kind of thing. He said yes, he had advocated that kind; he said

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he had advocated violence and turmoil of that jkind. He said it was necessary to have this to bring about the revolution that the socialists wanted.

Q In that connection was anything said about the means to be used--- anything said about arms or dynamite?

A Then we had a little talk about dynamite. I said: "I have heard you speak about dynamite, Mr. Spies. Are you in favor of its use?" He said yes he had advocated the use of dynamite. I said "Do I understand you Mr. Spies to say that you are in favor of killing police officers with dynamite?" He hesitated a little and he said: "Well, the police represent tthe capitalists, and they are enemies of ours, and when you have an enemy, he has got to be killed; and when the police are, as I have said, representatives of that class, they have got to be removed." That is the gist of what he said.

Q Was anything said about the bomb that night, as to whether he knew anything about it, or what it resembled in its sound when it exploded, and where he first learned of it and when he said he first learned of it?

A Mr. Spies said that he was up to the meeting of course, but didn't it know anything about the bomb having exploded until later, when he heard of it. He said he heard a noise that resembled the sound of a cannon and thought the police were firing over the heads of the people to frighten them. That is about all he knew of the bomb that night.

Q Did he say anything about the laws--- did you ask him any questions about the laws?

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A Yes; I asked him what he thought of the laws, in reference to his being down tthere. He said he considered all laws as things you could get along without. He said you would not need it; they were inimicable to the best interests of the people and of the social growth.

Q Did you have any talk with him in that connection about his connection with the Arbeiter Zeitung?

A Yes; I asked him if he was responsible for the articles that appeared in the Arbeiter Zeitung up until that time?

A He said "I only take the responsibility for those articles which I wrote." I said: "I understood you are the editor of the paper." He says: "I am the editor, but I am not the proprietor of it." I asked him who owned the paper, and he said the socialistic society, and he gave me a long talk on the socialistic society

Q In that conversation, did you ask him anything about the dynamite said to have been found at the Arbeiter Zeitung office?

A Yes, I talked to him about that.

Q What did he say?

A He said he knew a good deal about dynamite, or had experimented with it. Of course we all knew that, because he had given the reporters some little experience. I asked him where the dynamite was found in his office. He said he did not know.

He says: "I don't think that dynamite was in my office when I left it. I have an idea the police put that dynamite there to get a case on me." He says: "What do you think of that?" I was not being interviewed then and I didn't say anything.

Q Did you have any talk with Fielden that night?

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A Yes, I had a little talk with Mr. Fielden? Mr. Fielden was suffereing somewhat from his wound. He came up to the bars-- I don't know whether he knew me or not. I knew him pretty well, having seen him. I asked him how the condition of affairs at the Haymarket accorded with his ideas of socialism. "Well" Fielden says: "You are on dangerous ground now. There is an argument though that we have which is to the effect that if you cannot do a thing peaceably, you have to do it by force." ov "it is to be done." Something to that effect. I don't remember the language.

Q Did he say anything about who threw that bomb?

A I asked him who threw the bomb. He said He didn't know. I asked him if he thought Mr. Schwab threw it? He guessed not. He thought Mr. Schwab didn't have the courage to throw the bomb; but he said he had never seem his courage tested. I think that was all.

Q Did you ask Fielden any questions in regard to the number of scialists in Chicago?

A Yes, sir, I asked him how many socialists he thought were in Chicago. He said there were a number of groups containing 250 men-- that is, he said: "Those are recognized socialists;" "But" he said: "all over the city we have people from nearly every big whosesale house, and houses of that kind, but those people are afraid to come out yet, but they are only waiting an opportunity.

Q What was said about the marching military companies?

A In that connection, all he had to say in that connection was, he spoke about that decision of the Supreme Court which prohibited

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those people from marching around with arms; he was inclined to think that the decision was wrong; that it should not have been made. At least, he said, that the socialists had not arrived at the conclusion yet that the decision was right.

Q Do you remember what else Fielden said in regard to the carnage or murder committed at the Haymarket Square that night?

A I don't remember much more. The fact was Mr. Feilden was a second class man as to that, and I did not pay much attention to him.

Q Did you interview Schwab?

A Yes, I had a very short interview with Mr. Schwab. All that he had to say was that he considered socialism was right. It was right even with the carnage at the Haymarket, even with the bloodshed at the Haymerket, it was still right. I only talked with him about ten minutes. He was tired and so was I%

By Mr. Black.

Q What was the hour of this interview, or these interviews?

A I think it was bordering on twelve o'clock. It was a quarter to one when I got in my office.

Q During the night?

A Twelve o'clock at night.

Q Thursday night?

A No, that was Wednesday night and Thursday morning.

Q In other words, it was shortly after midnight Wednesday night

A Yes, sir that was the date.

Q Did you find any of these men in bed when you got to them?

A No, I did not. I was a little late in getting down, I think.

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Q How long was that interview after the coroner's inquest on Matthias J. Degan if you can tell?

A It was the night of that afternoon.

Q Had you attended that inquest?

A I had not.

Q Had you been advised from any source as to the inquest and its results?

A I had.

Q From what source?

A Talking about it I guess. Some of the boys spoke of it.

Q Had you been with the detectives prior to your interviews with Spies, Fielden and Schwab?

A No, sir I was in the outside work.

Q You had not had any interviews with any of the detectives at the central station before you saw them?

A I think not.

Q Who introduced you to them--- who took you down?

A I think it was a party by the name of Murnane, a detective, and I think also Mr. Duffy.

Q You did not have any conversation with either of them however?

A Only a little.

Q They rather demurred to taking so many down at such an unseasonable hour?

A I hardly think it was an unseasonable hour for taking us down.

Q Who was with you?

A I think Lieut. Buckling of the Stats-Zeitung was with me.

Q He is a reporter?

A Yes, he is a reporter.

Q Are you sure about that?

A I think Lieut. Buckling was with me.

Q My question is-- are you sure about that?

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A I was not alone.

Q Are you sure that Lieut. Buckling was with you?

A I am not positive of that.

Q You are not positive who did accompany you on that visit?

A Yes, I am quite positive that Mr. Murnane accompanied me.

Q He is one of the detectives?

A Yes, sir.

Q Was he present during these various conversations?

A He was present at a part of them.

Q But not through them?

A No sir. Mr. Duffy--

Q (Interrupting) Were the conversations carried on in a distinct and loud tone, or were they somewhat confidential?

A There was no confidence about them.

Q In their manner, were they loud, or were they carried on in a low monotone-- could persons hear what was said?

A It was the object to have these people standing around hear what was said.

Q You were putting them through with a view of having the officers hear?

A That was not usually.

Q What was the object you had for having the conversation with those standing around to hear?

A Lieut Buckling was there, and there was a reporter for the Tribune. I was saving Mr. Spies a good deal of time by asking these questions so those other two reporters could hear me.

Q You were specially interested in getting the conversation out for the other reporters?

A Not specially. I was specially interested in getting it for the Inter Ocean.

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Q How old are you?

A I will be 24 next March.

Q How long have you been in this country?

A I have been here about seven years.

Q Where were you born?

A I was born in Scotland.

Q What part of Scotland?

A In the suth.

Q How long was your conversation with Spies?

A I think it must have been from about twenty to twenty five minutes, but I am not positive.

Q You say you found Spies in the sweat-box?

A In the sweat -box.

Q What do you mean by sweat-box?

A That is what the cells of the central station were called, the sweat-box.

Q Why are they called that if you know?

Objected to.

A They are called the sweat-box-- the cells are called the sweat-box because they are pretty hot down there.

Q There is no ventilation of these cells to your knowledge?

A Yes, sir.

Q Except through the door?

A Yes, sir, I think there is.

Q Do you know. Have you ever examined so as to satisfy yourself upon that point?

A I never had occasion-- I never wanted to find out.

Q These cells you found these men in were inside cells below the level of the sidewalk?

A They were under the sidewalk, but they were on what you might

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call the corridor. They were all facing outside, but of course they were inside.

Q Do you mean to say that the numbers of their cells which you visited them in faced outside or inside?

A Of what?

Q Of the cells in which you found them-- they faced upon the corridor of course?

A Yes.

Q On what side of the building was Spies Cell.

A That is something that I could not tell you. I got into a sort of labyrinth when I got down there.

Q Can't you locate it at all?

A I should say that Mr. Spies' cell was in the north end that is the north cell of the cells.

Q Did his cell face east or west?

A His cell I think faced north.

Q Faced up then toward Randolph street?

A Faced up toward Randolph.

Q It was not under the sidewalk-- it was simply below the level of the sidewalk?

A It is right under the city hall.

Q There is a corridoor that runs around those cells-- these cells being bunched in the centre?

A Exactly.

Q Now, can you tell us just who were present during your interview with Spies?

A Well, Mr. Duffy was present.

Q Dyffy was one of the policemen?

A One of the officers.

Q Who else?

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A Lieut Kipley was there part of the time.

Q He is one of the officers?

A He is lieutenant of detectives; and I think Mr. Chapin, I am positive Mr. Chhapin was there.

Q Who is Chapin?

A A Tribune reporter; and Lieut. Buckling of the Staadts-Zeitung

Q You are sure he was present?

A I am quite positive he was present.

Q So that, as you remember, there were besides yourself and Spies two detectives and two reporters?

A Yes, sir.

Q A reporter of the Tribune and reporter of the Staadts-Zeitung?

A Yes, sir.

Q How long did this interview with Spies occupy?

A As I said, I think from twenty to twentyfive minutes.

Q Do you think that all that was said in that interview by him to you and you to, him, was so spoken in such a tone that it could be heard by the auditors there?

A I think that the detectives could have heard. The detectives did not seem to care to hear.

Q I don't care what they seemed to. Where was their position?

A Mr. Duffy was standing directly in front of me, with his back nearly towards Spies, because I was leaning on his shoulder. I had my notebook there.

Q Leaning on the officer's shoulder?

A Yes, sir.

Q He was furnishing you a convenient rest on which to make notes?

A Yes, sir.

Q You stood directly in front of the doors of the cells?

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A No sir, I stood with my side to the door.

Q Did you stand in front of it or did you stand to one side of it.

A I stood I think a little to one side of it. Mr. Chapin had the preference I think.

Q If you stood a little to one side of the door, the officer must have stood about in front of them?

A Pretty nearly in front.

Q What was there to trouble or prevent his hearing, whether he was listening or not, if he stood right in front of the door, with his side to it, furnishing a rest for you to write on?

A I hardly think there was any trouble in hearing it.

Q Do you think that he did hear it?

A I am positive that he must have heard some of it.

Q Where was the other officer standing?

A Mr. Murnane was running back and forwards. He was not there all the time. Mr. Murnane finally disappeared, and I saw him no more that night.

Q With reference to your location, and that of your convenient tablet-rest, where did the other reporters stand?

A Mr. Chapin as I said stood to one side of the door. Lieut. Buckling stood alongside of him.

Q Which side of the door did Chapin stand-- did he stand the other side of the officer?

A Yes, sir, the officer was between us.

Q And Buckling stood outside of the officer, I suppose?

A Outside of the officer, yes, sir.

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Q Did he stand nearer you or nearer Chapin?

A Buckling?

Q Yes, sir.

A Part of the time he stood beyond Mr. Chapin, and another time he stood nearer me.

Q Nearer you?

A Yes, sir.

Q So that as you stood there, here was three of you, yourself, the officer and Chapin standing right up across the door, and Buckling was skirmishing around for a position?

A No, I think you are in error there Mr. counsel. Mr. Buckling stood there beyond Mr. Chapin until one time and he said: "Hume you ask him about the paper." And I immediately asked him.

Q That was about the Arbeiter Zeitung and his reference to it?

A Yes.

Q He came around and made that suggestion?

A No sir, he did not come around, but simply advanced a step. If you understand me, we were not strung out against the door. Mr. Spies' face was up against the door and we met him by the door.

Q Spies was at the door?

A Yes, sir the inside of it.

Q And the officer stood a little over in front of it.

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you run up your line diagonally, or did you run parallel with the corridor and with the front of the cage?

Q It sort of made a triangle with Mr. Spies as a base.

Q Mr. Spies and his cell door forming the base and you gentlemen forming the other two sides of the triangle?

A pretty near that

Q Who was on the apex of that triangle?

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A Mr. Duffy I think. He was to one side.

Q He was the fellow that stood fruthesrt from the door then?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you make a report of that conversation?

A I took a report of it.

Q You made it right then and there?

A Made it right then and there.

Q Mr. Spies saw that you were writing down his answers?

A Yes, sir.

Q And that you were writing while the talk was going on?

A He knew I wanted the talk for publication.

Q He knew you were writing while the talk was going on?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you tell him what paper you represented?

A I think I was introduced to him as from the Inter Ocean.

Q Was the attitudes substantially as you have detailed here, as to the persons present, the positions they occupied, the fact that you were introduced as a reporter, and that the conversations were desired for publication when you had your interviews with Schwab and Fielden respectively?

A Our positions were changed-- I don't think that Mr.--let me say Mr. Buckling was there when I talked with Fielden. Mr Buckling was there. And Mr. Kipley was there. I did not talk long with Fielden because I did not want to get much out of him. I hadn't much interest with Fielden, very little interest in him.

Q Did anybody else ask for a conversation with Fielden?

A I don't know.

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Q Dod your party allude to any of these interviews in your trip from the cell?

There was quite a number of people down there and a number of reporters, and may be one or two of them had been over to Fielden before I got down there. Perhaps they were talking to Spies or Schwab and I guess they were walking around, and I did not pay very particular notice of them.

Q You have given, have you, the substance of the various interviews as fully as you remember?

A Yes, sir as fully as I can remember I have given them.

Q What did you do with the notes of those conversations made by you?

A As we usually do threw them away.

Q Did you write out your report that night for publication in the morning paper?

A I wrote it out that morning for publication that morning.

Q Before daylight you had written it out?

A Yes, sir.

Q Where did you write it out?

A In my office at the Inter Ocean office.

Q You went then after these interviews direct to the Inter Ocean office and wrote out the report?

A I did, sir.

Q How often have you read that published report over since?

A I guess I have looked over it about three times, perhaps four times.

Q When was the last time you examined it?

A I handed it to counsel for the other side some time ago. I did not examine it. I handed it to him.

Q When was the last time you examined that report?

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A This morning, I looked at it this morning.

Q You knew that when I asked the question first?

A I knew that.

Q Why didn't you say so?

A I wanted to give a clear answer.

Q Did it give any clearer answer. When I last asked you to tell me, you said you handed it to the counsel some time ago?

A That depends upon what you call examination.

Q What I wanted to know was, when you last examined it. When I asked you the question the second time you told me you examined it this morning?

A I examined it to see whether it was the report of something, yes sir. I gave it to counsel and that was an examination.

Q When did you give it to counsel?

A This morning.

Q When, before you looked at it this morning to make sure that it was the identical report, and handed it to Mr. Grinnell, when before that had you read it over?

A I did not read it over this morning. I simply looked at one little thing in it this morning.

(Last question was here read by the stenographer)

A I don't think Mr. Counsel I ever read that report over fully. I don't believe I ever did.

Q When was it you read it over partially?

A I read it over partially this morning.

Q How much of it did you read over this morning?

A I think that I read about twenty one lines.

Q About twenty-one lines of it this morning. When was the last

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time before that that you read over any portion of it?

A I could not give you the exact hour, but it was yesterday.

Q How, much of it did you read over yesterday?

A I glanced through it.

Q You glanced clear through it yesterday.

A I did not glance clear through it.

Q I don't mean you read every word of it, but I mean you run it over, as a man would run over something for the purpose of refreshing his recollection?

A Exactly. I did not go right through it. I knew the introduction was there, and did not take time to examine it.

Q You did not examine the introduction?

A Not at all.

Q So far as the report shows your report of the conversations, you read it over yesterday?

A Not all of it.

Q Pretty much all of it?

A Pretty much all of it.

Q You glanced at one portion of it again this morning?

A Yes, sir.

Q For the purpose of further refreshing your recollection?

A Yes, sir exactly.

Q And to make sure you would not make any mistake?

A That is exactly the idea.

Q Independently of the report, how distinct is your recollection as to what took place that night?

A Well, my recollection I can't say is very distinct. I always make the point of forgetting or trying to forget what I write up. It is a much better way.

Q Now I say, independently of this report which you read over

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for the purpose of refreshing your recollection, how clear is your memory as to what took place between you that night?

A I am not very clear on that Mr. Counsel.

Q You have already stated in answer to my questions and you have given in your direct examination in substance all that you remember that occurred between you I suppose that night?

A I think you are right there Mr. Counsel.

Q Will you look at this slip and tell me whether you recognize that as a part of the printed copy of all your report, or any potion of it?

A That is a part of the printed copy of my report.

Q Look at this, and state whether that is the balance of it?

A That is the balance of it.

Q The two together form the printed copy of your report?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now then, did Spies say to you in the course of your conversation that evening, the night when you found him at the sweatbox, that he had received a circular calling on the socialists to go to the meeting of Tuesday night with arms, and then say, "I thought I would not be at the meeting," but finally went when the people who got up the circular promised to take out the word "with arms?"

A Yes, sir.

Q You remember that do you?

A I remember that now when you call it to my attention.

Q You did not regard that as a matter of any importance at the time?

A At what time?

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Q At the time of the interview, did you regard that as a matter of any consequence?

A Well, I did not regard any of it as a matter of consequence except as of the moment.

Q When you were testifying here as to this conversation you had with Spies, you stated to me that you had told the entire substance of the conversation so far as heard by you. Did you regard that matter at that time as a matter of any consequence?

A At this time?

Q At this time?

A I have not the slightest recollection of that, or I should have given it.

Q You would not have any recolection of it now, if it were not here?

A I would not have had any recollection, if not called to my attention.

Q Was that true of the entire interview?

A No, it is not.

Q Some parts you would have remembered independently of your report?

A One or two things I should have remembered.

Q Will you tell me the one or two things you think you would remember or do remember independently of your notes or report that occurred in your conversation with Spies?

A Yes, sir, I think I remember one thing any way. It was rather pertinent at that time. Spies said he was in favor of removing the police by force. That of course I had heard him talk on that often-- that remained in my mind perhaps through that as much as anything else.

Q Do, you remember whether in the course of that interview directly

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after the portions to which I have called your attention he stated to you that he went to the meeting more with the idea of quieting the people than anything else?

A I could not swear that that is in my report.

Q Will you lookmat the report and see if it refreshees your recollection and if it does, tell me whether you remember that, (Witness examines report)

A Yes, sir if you will excuse me one moment.

Q You remember it, do you?

A Yes, sir.

Q He did state to you on that interview that he went to that meeting more for the purpose of quieting the people than anything else?

A If it is there, he said that.

Q I will read something here. "I thought", and this portion is in quotation marks, "I thought, said he, I would not be at the meeting, but finally went when the people that got up the circular promised to take out the words", with arms." That ends the quotation. He went more with the idea of quieting the people than anything else-- that is correct?

A Yes, he did not say that in those words. You will notice the quotation ends there.

Q I notice the quotation ends, and you take up the narrative form did he say that in substance?

A Yes, sir, I guess he said that in substance.

Q I understand you that Spies announced his advocacy of force in connection with revolutionary work, did he?

A He did sir.

Q Was it he, or was it Fielden or Schwab that commended socialism despite the Haymarket matter?

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A It was the gentleman with the glasses, Mr. Schwab.

Q Mr. Schwab did that?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, what did Spies say in his advocacy of force?

A I think Mr. Counsel if you put the other question I will be able to answer it better.

Q My question is before you, and I ask you to give me as near as you can remember what Spies said in his advocacy of force?

A I hardly think I understand that.

Q You hardly think you understand it. You can't tell me what he did say on the subject of force?

A Oh yes, I can.

Q What did he say on the subject of force? We will change the expression a little.

A He said that if a man is an enemy of yours he has got to be removed, and he will be removed I think he said by force, if necessary.

Q That if he was an enemy he must be removed if necessary?

A Yes, by force I think.

Q Was that all he said on the subject that you remember, "by force"?

A He also said that dynamite was a good force and he also stated that he was willing or had advocated the killing of police by force or dynamite.

Q Did he say that he had advocated the use of dynamite on such an occasion as the Tuesday night meeting?

A No sir, Mr. Spies was very clever in that regard.

Q Very clever you think that is the word-- how did he exhibit to you his cleverness in that regard?

A I had heard him talk so often that I had gone down there thinking that I would hear one of those incendiary speeches, but he was

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very quiet.

Q Because he was quiet, being in the sweat-box and under duress, and surrounded by officers and reporters, you thought he was very clever?

A I thought he was very clever.

Q Would not you have thought him an infernal fool if he had done anything else?

Objected to.

Q You thought it was very clever of him that he did not go immediately into one of his harangues with which you are familiar-that would be your judgment?

A That is my judgment if my judgment was worth anything.

Q Did he say anything whatever in the course of that interview about the work of Tuesday night?

A Yes, sir.

Q What did he say on that subject?

A He said that it was wrong; said that it ought not to have been done-- the bomb should not have been thrown.

Q Why didn't you tell us that in your direct examination?

A Those I think Mr. Black---

Q (interrupting) Those are matters you did not regard as of any importance?

A Those I think are in the introductory. I said I did not read the introductory over. I think those are in the introductory.

Q Will you look at the portion of your report which stands about the middle of the whole of it, and where it professes to be verbatim, and state whether or not you find the words in quotation marks as addressed to Mr. Spies by yourself "Do you consider the

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work of Tuesday night as a victory?" With the answer in quotation marks "No, it was disgusting."

A Yes, sir.

Q Is that in the introductory part of the article or is that in your assumed verbatim report of what took place?

A That is my verbatim report.

Q Why didn't you tell us that in your direct examination?

A I guess I must have forgotten it. I am positive I forgot it.

Q Are you in the habit of forgetting in that way when you are detailing what occurred between yourself and people you interview?

A When I do not take notes I am quite often in the habit of forgetting.

A Spies did say then that Tuesday's night's work was disgusting?

A As might have been expected of him, he did.

Q As might have been expected--- if you expected it of him why did you ask the question. As might have been expected in your comment now?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, will you answer my question. If you expected him to answer it was disgusting, why did you ask him the question that night!

A I did not expect him to say that it was disgusting.

Q What did you expect him to say?

A I thought that he would deprecate the matter.

Q He came out a little stronger than you expected?

A I hardly think he did.

Q How often before that had you ever heard Spies talk on the

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subject of socialism and of the social revolution?

A Quite often.

Q Was there anything else in that interview that was said by Spies to you or you to Spies which you have not given me that made any impression upon your mind?

A If it had made any impression upon my mind I should certainly have testified to it.

Q Did you ask Spies whether he knew who threw the bomb or who did throw it?

A No, I don't remember that.

Q You asked that question of Fielden?

A Of Fielden.

Q Fielden told you he did not know?

A Yes%

Q But you didn't ask Spies who threw it?

A I don't think I did ask Spies.

Q Your interview with Fielden was a very short interview as I understand it?

A It was very short.

Q As I understand from what you say here you didn't care very much about Fielden. You thought he was a sort of lay figure in the performance?

A Pretty near that. Mr. Fielden was pretty tired.

Q Did you know he had also been wounded?

A I may not in my answer but I inferred that he was wounded.

Q You inferred he was wounded? and you said he was pretty tired?

A Yes, sir.

Q. How did you expect us to infer that he was wounded when you said that he was tired?

Objected to. Objection sustained; exception by defendants.

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Q How long have you known Spies?

A I have known Spies for quite a little while.

Q What are your religious antecedents?

A Presbyterian.

Q Are you a member of that church?

A I am a member of no church.

Q Yourr father and mother were Presbyrerians?

A They were Presbyterians.

Q You have been in this country you say seven years?

A Yes, sir.

Q When you asked Fielden if he knew who threw that bomb, do you remember the form of expression he used in reply?

A I hardly think that I remember it. He simply said that he did not know. He said he did not know who threw the bomb.

Q Didn't he use this expression, "It was some blank fool who threw that bomb"?

A Yes sir, I think he said it was some damn fool.

Q Some Damn fool?

A That is the exparession; and then he put his hand on his knee; I remember that.

Q Did you ask Spies where he went after the Tuesday night explosion?

A Yes sir, I asked him that.

Q What did he say to you in answer to that?

A He said he went home.

Q Did he tell you where his home was?

A He told me where it was.

Q Did he tell you what he did the next morning, that is, the morning of the day on which you were having this interview?

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A I don't think I asked him much about that.

Q You don't think you asked him?

A Not very much.

Q Didn't he say: "I went home to No. 14 Park street. I was not disturbed and got up in the morning as usual," or words to that effect?

A If that is there it is as I reported it.

Q Let me refresh your recollection again. (Shows witness report)

A Mr. Spies said that.

Q "I went home to No. 13 Park street. I was not disturbed and got up in the morning as usual" He said that?

A He said that.

Q Now, in giving me the point or giving to the court rather in your direct examination the point as you remember as said by Schwab, I understood you to say, am I correct, that notwithstanding the Haymarket occurrence, still he believed socialism to be right?

A You understand the indident and the article.

Q That was the testimony?

A That was the testimony.

Q You are certain in that immediate connection Mr. Schwab said that notwithstanding the Haymarket tragedy or occurrence, or whatever it was, that still socialism was right.

A He said that.

Q Used just about those words?

A Not at all.

Q Let me ask you further then? Did he in connection with his expression of his faith in socialism mention the Haymarket occurrence?

A I hardly think he did, not in that way.

Q That is one of your inferences, your conclusions from the conversation?

A Those complex sentences---

Q (Interrupting) I don't want any complex sentences. I

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want to know whether or not you in your testimony put the Haymarket meeting and socialism together or whether Schwab did it in his talk?

A Will you be kind enough to let me explain this.

Q Yes sir, and I would like to have you answer the question in the course of your explanation.

A I asked Mr. Schwab what he thought, as I had the others, what he thought of the business up there at the haymarket. He shook his head I remember in this fashion (illustrating), shrugged his shoulders. He shook his head and shrugged his shoulders a little and said--- I asked him what he thought of socialism not in that connection. He said: "Socialism is right and right--- very nice answer, something to that effect. I thought that was very clever.

Q What was it you asked Schwab to which he made that very clever answer?

A I asked him what he thought of the business up there at the Haymarket. I did not ask him one question but a number of questions.

A I asked him of that tenor.

Q What I am wanting to get at is this--- in your direct examination as I have quoted to you and you have endorsed it, and stated in substance that Schwab said that notwithstanding the haymarket affair, still he believed socialism right. Now, I ask you did Schwab put the socialism and haymarket affair together, or did you do it?

A Socialism and that Desplaines and Randolph street affair were put in connection by I think Mr. Schwab.

Q By Mr. Schwab?

A Yes, sir.

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Q Will you look over your published report of that interview with Michael Schwab in full as given in the paper I want to ask you a question or two in regard to that?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, the entire published report of that interview with Schwab is contained in just these words. Michael Schwab said, and this purports to be in quotation, "As the machines, factories, mines and all those things are to be worked by the people and not by individuals for stockholders, what do you think of socialism now?"--- the question is in quotation. "Answer, I think it is right-- right --and it is right.

A Exactly.

Q That is your entire report of the conversation?

A That is the report of that entire conversation which extended over a good deal more than that.

Q In your report which you made for publication and which was published, the haymarket affair is not mentioned at all, is it?

A The haymarket?

Q In the report which is made and which is published and which I read in full the haymarket affair is not mentioned?

Objected to.

Q In the report which you made and which you have said was published, did you say anything about the haymarket meeting in connection with Schwab?

A In that report, no sir--- in that report right there.

Q Is not it also a fact Mr. Hume, that while the printed report of the interview with Schwab is contained in a little over six lines, the printed report of your interview with Fielden occupied

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about five inches of space in the column?

A That is right sir.

Q Schwab speakes English somewhat brokenly?

A Yes, sir.

Q Somewhat laboriously?

A Yes sir, I should judge so.

Q Now, in your interview with Fielden was anything suggested by you or anyone else present, any inquiry made of him or otherwise, as to his having fired any shots at the haymarket on Tuesday night, Fielden having fired?

A I don't remember having asked him that.

Q Do you remember whether anything of that sort was asked or suggested by anyone?

A I don't remember.

Q You don't remember anything of that sort?

A No sir, I do not.

Q Did Schwab tell you where he was the night of May 4th?

A He told me where he was part of that night.

Q He told you he had been out to Deering and made a speech?

A Yes, he said so.

Q Why didn't you tell us that on your direct examination.

A I think Mr. Grinnell wanted to draw out as near as I can remember what I heard there.

Q You and Grinnell had arranged it before hand?

A No sir, I think not.

Q How was it then that you concluded that Grinnell wanted you to go according to the printed report?

A He did not want me to go according to the printed report, but told me to tell all that I remembered of it.

Q You remembered that Schwab told you that he was out at Deering?

A I did not give it all.

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Q Do I understand you that having been sworn to tell the truth and the whole truth, you still did not think about, when asked as to the conversation with Schwab, you did not think of the fact that he had told you that he had been out to Deering that night and made a speech?

Objected to.

THE COURT: The question itself was answered in the answer to the preceding question.

Defendants then and there excepted to the ruling of the court.

(Here insert Gilmer's testimony.)

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