The
People of the State of Illinois vs. August Spies et al.
Transcript of witness testimony: G. P. English, reporter for the Chicago
Tribune
Witness for the State, July 27, 1886
G. P. ENGLISH,
a
witness called and sworn on behalf of the People, was examined in chief
by Mr. Grinnell, and testified as follows:
Q.
What is your name?
A.
G.P.English.
Q.
You are a reporter for the Tribune?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
And have been for a good many years?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
How long?
A.
Seventeen or eighteen.
Q.
You are a shorthand reporter too?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
Did you attend the Haymarket meeting?
A.
I did.
Q.
What time did you get there?
A.
About half past seven.
Q.
That was on the 4th of May?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
What did you do when you got there -- you got there about half past
seven?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
What did you see and hear?
A.
I didn't see anything. I looked for a meeting and didn't find it.
Q.
Where did you go to look?
A.
Well, I went all around to Haymarket square.
Q.
From Desplaines to Halsted?
A.
From Desplaines to Halsted.
Q.
Did you see any people on the street?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
How many?
A.
Well, a few.
Q.
Did you go clear up to Halsted?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
Did you see any of the defendants there?
A.
No sir, not at that time.
Q.
You came back did you to Desplaines Street?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
What time did you go back there?
A.
Oh, I suppose it took me perhaps ten minutes to walk up and down; but
I walked very slowly.
Q.
What happened then when you walked back to Desplaines and Randolph?
A.
I didn't see anything and went off to the station.
Q.
Well, what did you do then?
A.
I had to wait a little while.
Q.
When you got back -- how long were you at the station -- when you got
back to the station?
A.
Oh, I was there perhaps five minutes or so.
Q.
And came back to the corner of Desplaines and Randolph?
A.
I went down and came back to the corner of Desplaines and Randolph and
leaned up against a lamp post there a little while. There were more
people coming all the time. Then I walked west on Randolph Street and
I met a couple of other reporters; then we talked a little while and
then I saw Mayor Harrison and I started for him to interview him, and
he got ahead of me, and I followed him into the station and he went
into the office. There was a number of officers there, lieutenants and
captains, I suppose and I didn't get a chance at him. And I stayed in
there -- oh, I don't know, ten or fifteen minutes perhaps. I was talking
to somebody and he said the Mayor had gone
out, and I went right out and I caught up with him just a little west
of the alley, and he went along over pretty near half way across Randolph
Street, and then he came back, but I couldn't get a chance to talk to
him. And I waited around for a little while, and then I saw somebody
-- some people going over north on Desplaines, beyond Randolph. I thought
perhaps that was where the meeting was going on, and I went over, and
it turned out that it was.
MR.
BLACK: A little louder, please.
A.
I went over there and in a little while Mr. Spies got upon the wagon
and motioned with his hands that way (showing)/ And somebody said, "Are
you going to begin?" and he said, "Yes, all right". And
then he said that Mr. Fielden and Mr. Parsons were to make a speech
but they hadn't come. And then Mr. Spies got down off of the wagon and
went over towards Randolph Street. He was gone perhaps five or ten minutes,
and he came back, and as he passed me I asked him if Mr. Parsons was
going to speak. I understood him to say "Yes". Then he got
up on the platform -- got up on the wagon, or whatever it was, I didn't
see distinctly, and he called the meeting to order.
MR.
GRINNELL: Q. What did he say when he did that, as you say, Mr. English.
A.
"Gentlemen, please come to order."
Q.
How far were you from the wagon?
A.
Oh, I was about fifteen feet, I guess, or so, or
twenty feet.
Q.
Did you take shorthand notes of his speech?
A.
I did, as much as I could.
Q.
Have you got them?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
Where were you taking them?
A.
I took them in my overcoat pocket.
Q.
What do you mean by that?
A.
Oh, I was standing up and had a note book in my pocket and a short pencil.
Q.
Had a note book in your pocket?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
In your overcoat pocket?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
Why did you take them that way?
Question
objected to.
Q.
Well, will you read from your notes?
MR.
BLACK: We object to his reading from his notes. He may read off from
them personally, for the purpose of the refreshing of his recollection;
but we object to his reading them out loud.
THE
COURT: Read all that he said, so far as you can, without the aid of
your notes.
A.
Well, I can tell what I took from my reports of the spee speeches. I
can't recollect what he said.
MR.
FOSTER: Your Honor said he may read them?
THE
COURT: I did not mean that. If he took shorthand notes and if he knows
they are correct.
A.
They are correct.
Q.
And are decipherable?
A.
Yes sir.
THE
COURT: If he can't remember the words without his notes then he can
read from his notes.
A.
Some of them I can read, some I can't.
MR.
BLACK: That is a good reason why he shouldn't read them at all.
THE
COURT: Well, so much of them as you can read, do you know whether they
are correct or not?
A.
I think they are.
THE
COURT: Well, that portion then is competent.
Defendants except.
MR.
GRINNELL: Q. Well, proceed Mr. English.
A.
Well, before this, I should state, that when Mr. Spies was first on
the wagon --
MR.
BLACK: (Interrupting) A little louder Mr. English.
A.
When Mr. Spies was first on the wagon, I think, or it might have been
when he came back, somebody in the crowd suggested that the meeting
should go over in the Haymarket; but Mr. Spies said no, that the crowd
would interfere with the street cars. Now, the first I have here is
Spies: "Please come to order, gentlemen. Gentlemen and fellow workmen
--"
MR.
FOSTER: (Interrupting) Well, does the court say he can read everything?
Do we understand that your Honor rules that he can
read from his memorandum?
THE
COURT: Oh, yes. That identical question has been passed upon by the
Supreme Court: that if a stenographer makes notes, which, so far as
they go, he can say -- he testifies are correct -- which he intended
to have correct at the time, and which he now believes are correct,
then, if he has forgotten, himself the language he may read from his
notes.
MR.
BLACK: Well, we do not know if he has forgotten the language, if your
Honor please.
MR.
GRINNELL: He simply said he didn't recollect; he didn't remember; that
he reported so many speeches that it would be hard work for him to remember
independently what any one said.
MR.
BLAC: Well, we except to the ruling.
THE
WITNESS: He said: "Gentlemen and fellow workingmen--"
MR.
FOSTER: Who is this now, Spies?
A.
This is Spies. "Mr. Parsons and Mr. Fielden will be here in a very
short time to address you. I will say, however, first, this meeting
was called for the purpose of discussing the general situation of the
eight hour strike, and the events which have taken place during the
last forty-eight hours. It seems to have been the opinion of the authorities,
that this meeting has been called for the purpose of raising a little
row and disturbance. This however, was not the intention of the committee
that called the meeting. The committee that called the meeting wanted
to tell you certain facts of which you are probably aware. The
capitalistic press has been misleading -- misrepresenting the cause
of labor for the last two weeks, so much so"-- then there is something
that is unintelligible that I can't read at all. Some of it went off
on the side of my pocket.
MR.
FOSTER: You haven't got your pocket, have you?
A.
Well I didn't have much room in my coat pocket. The next is: "Whenever
strikes have taken place; whenever people have been driven to violence
by the oppression of their" -- then there is something unintelligible.
And the next I have is: "Then the police" -- then there is
three or four words of that that is unintelligible. Then there were
cheers. "But I want to tell you gentlemen, that these acts of violence
are the natural outcome of the degradation and the oppression to which
working people are subjected. I was addressing a meeting of ten thousand
wage workers yesterday afternoon in the neighborhood of McComick's.
They didn't want me to speak. The most of them were good church going
people. They didn't want me to speak because I was a socialist. They
wanted to tear me down from the cars, but I spoke to them and told them
that they must stick together" -- Then there is some more that
is unintelligible. and some more, there is one, eight or ten words on
a page. The next I have, is "And he would have to submit to them
if they would stick together." There is only eight or ten words
on a page. The next I have is: "They were anarchists -- they were
not anarchists, but good church going people" Then the next, "The
capitalistic press" -- what he said I can't
make out. "They were good christians." Then the patrol wagons
came and blood was shed. Then a boy or some one in the crowd said: "Shame
on them". And the next thing said is, "Throwing stones at
the factory; most harmless sport." Then some one in the crowd --
then Spies said: "What did the police do?" And some one in
the crowd said, "Murdered them". Then he went on: "they
only came to the meeting there as if attending church." Then there
is some more that is unintelligible. The next I have is: "Such
things tell you of the agitation" I couldn't tell them that. Then
there is something more that is unintelligible. The next I have is:
"Couldn't help themselves any more. It was then they resorted to
violence." The next I have: "Before you starve" -- No
connection whatever. And the next, "This fight that is going on
now is simply a struggle for the existence of the oppressed classes."
Then I have some more here that is unintelligible. That is the last
that I can get out. At this time my pocket was full of paper; it was
all rumpled up, and I thought that I had got to the end of this note
book. That is, as my pocket got fuller and fuller of paper, my notes
got more unintelligible, because I didn't have room enough to move my
hand in, and the notes were away up here (showing), and I evidently
made some in my pocket: Then I moved around, and the meeting seemed
to be orderly, and I took another position in the
face of the speaker, and I took out my paper and reported openly during
all the rest of the meeting, until I saw the police come and then I
went on the sidewalk.
MR.
GRINNELL: Q. Well, what report have you then?
A.
Only what is in my paper. These notes were first made on the ordinary
paper that reporters use. I put them on my desk when I came there in
the morning about half past one, and I had no idea that I was going
to be called as a witness, but Mr. Patterson, I think it was the night
after, asked me where they were, and said they might be important; and
I looked for them, and they told me they were gone; they supposed the
janitor took them. So I have no further information except what is in
the paper.
Q.
Did you write out from your notes that which appeared in the Tribune
the next day?
A.
Only part of it.
Q.
As to Parson's speech?
A.
As to Parson's and Spies and Fielden.
Q.
Now you may state -- if you have no other way than that that appeared
in the Tribune, as taken from your notes, you may state what Parsons
said?
A.
Well, this is not all of the speeches.
Q.
I wish further, first, before we proceed to Parsons, can you give me
from your memory, or from recollection, without the paper, which would
refresh your memory, what Spies said other than
that which you have from your original notes?
A.
I can read it.
Q.
Very well. Read it. Refresh your memory as to what he said further --
what Spies said further than that which you have from your notes --
your original notes. I understand, any matters that appeared in print
were written out at night from your original notes?
A.
Yes sir, so far as it goes.
Q.
From your notes and from memory.
A.
Yes sir, but all of it is not here. What is given here of Parsons he
could say in perhaps three or four minutes, but he spoke perhaps three
quarters of an hour.
Q.
But what is there was said by these speakers?
A.
With the exception that the pronouns and the verbs are changed.
Q.
Explain to the jury how that is done.
A.
In making an abstract of a speech, when a man says, "I will do
this", the custom is to say, He did that -- to put it in the past
tense. When a man says, "I will do it", they put it in the
abstract, "he would do it." It is simply the pronouns and
the verbs are changed.
Q.
Now you may state other than that what -- state what there was in Spies'
speech, give it to us in detail fully what you have written or what
was transcribed by you from your notes, to the jury, or explain what
occurred there.
Objected to.
THE
COURT: I don't quite understand from the witness --
Q.
Is this verbatim so far as it goes?
A.
Yes, so far as it goes except the pronouns and the verbs are changed.
Q.
Except the pronouns and the verbs and the moods are changed?
A.
Yes sir.
MR.
BLAC: It is verbatim with the exception that it is not.
THE
COURT: Except he is speaking in the third person.
A.
Except that he is speaking in the third person.
MR.
BLACK: We make our objection.
THE
COURT: Q. Now, can you tell from memory, and the notes - give us the
words that the speakers used. That is, knowing the meaning, after changing
your moods and tenses and pronouns, can you go back again and read off
and repeat the original of the words so far as you have got them?
A.
I think so.
Q.
Well then go on and do it.
Defendants except.
THE
COURT: I understood the witness to say that so far as he does read he
reads what Parsons said.
MR.
FOSTER: Verbatim?
THE
COURT: Yes.
MR.
FOSTER: He don't mean that.
THE
COURT: Let me hear that again.
THE
WITNESS: After I got back to the office my instructions
were to write out the most incendiary part of the speeches. I went right
through my notes, and so far as it goes, they were transcribed from
my notes, with the exception of the changing of the verbs and the pronouns.
That is I took this from my notes, and changed the verbs and the pronouns
as I went along.
Q.
And by changing back again it becomes verbatim, does it?
A.
Yes, sir; it must be.
Q.
But only of a small portion of it?
A.
Only a small portion.
MR.
BLACK: The most incendiary part.
MR.
FOSTER: The part in which he designates "Hell for a minute,"
in the report.
A.
I don't know anything about that, I didn't write that.
THE
COURT: Then repeat as near as you can what Parsons or Spies said.
MR.
GRINNELL: Give that part of Spies which you have not given, if you can;
what his words were, making the changes.
A.
(Reads) "It was said that I inspired the attack on McCormick's.
That is a lie. The fight is going on. Now is the chance to strike for
the existence of the oppressed classes. The oppressors want us to be
content. They will kil us. The thought of liberty which inspired your
sires to fight for their freedom ought to animate you to-day. The day
is not far distant when we will resort to hanging
these men." (Applause and cries of, "Hang them now.")
"Mc. Cormick is the man who created the row Monday, and he must
be held responsible for the murder of our brothers. (Cries of, "Hang
him") "Don't make any threats; they are of no avail. When
ever you get ready to do something do it and don't make any threats
beforehand. There are in the city to-day between forty and fifty thousand
men locked out because they refuse to obey the supreme will or dictation
of a small number of men. The families of twenty-five or thirty thousand
men are starving because their husbands and fathers are not men enough
to withstand and resist the dictation of a few thieves on a grand scale,
to put out of the power of a few men to say whether they should work
or not? Would they place their lives, their happiness, everything out
of the arbitrary power of a few rascals."
MR.
BLACK: Wait a minute, Mr. English. Aren't you forgetting your moods
and tenses now? "Would they place their lives," is not precisely
like a speaker would speak to an audience.
A.
Well, shall we put it out of the power of a few men to say whether you
shall work or not. You place your lives, your happiness, everything
out of the arbitrary power of a few rascals who have been raised in
idleness and luxury upon the fruits of your labor. Will you stand that?" (Cries of,
"No") The press say we are Bohemians, Poles, Russians, Germans
-- that there are no Americans among us. That is a lie. Every honest
American is with us. Those who are not are unworthy of their traditions
and their fore-fathers."
Q.
Is that all you have got of Spies besides that which you have read?
A.
That is all of Spies.
Q.
Now, let us have what Parsons said. Did you have more of Spies that
wasn't written out?
A.
Yes, sir, I think I did. Spies I think spoke fifteen or twenty minutes,
and this wouldn't represent more than five or six perhaps. That is,
in actual talking. Well, now here is an abstract of Parsons, and I can't
give the exact language when he first started off.
Q.
Well, we will get back to that in a minute. You may tell us, Mr. English,
in your own way, when he first started off in his speech. What was his
first preliminary remark when he started off?
A.
I can't tell you about that. It was about the working men, that the
remedy for their wrongs was in socialism.
Q.
Well, now tell us what you have got exact.
A.
He said, without them they would soon become Chinamen. He said, "It
is time to raise a note of warning. There is nothing in the eight hour
movement to excite the capitalist."
MR.
FOSTER: Didn't he say anything about Chinamen before that?
A.
Well, I said that. "Do you know that the military are under arms,
and a gatling gun is ready to mow you down. Was this Germany or Russia
or Spain."
MR.
ZEISLER: Is this.
A.
Is this. "Is this Germany, Russia or Spain". (A voice, "It
looks like it") "Whenever you make a demand for eight hours
pay, and increase of pay, the militia and the deputy sheriff and the
Pinkerton men are called out and you are shot and clubbed and murdered
in the streets. I am not here for the purpose of inciting anybody but
to speak out, to tell the facts as they exist, even though it shall
cost me my life before morning." Then he went on to tell about
Cincinnati.
MR.
FOSTER: Well, go right along.
A.
The Cincinnati demonstration.
Q.
Well, we want it.
A.
And about the rifle guard being needed.
Q.
Why don't you go right along?
A.
Well, that is the abstract here.
MR.
INGHAM: You can't swear what the abstract is as to what he said.
THE
COURT:Q. Is that all.
A.
No sir, there is another part of it here. "It behooves you, as
you love your wife and children, if you don't want to see them perish
with hunger, killed or cut down like dogs on the street, Americans,
in the interest of your liberty and your independence,
to arm, arm yourselves." There I think is an error. My recollection
is that he said, "If you wouldn't be killed or cut down like dogs
in the street, Americans, in the interest of your liberty and your independence
to arm, to arm." (Applause and cries of "We will do it. We
are ready now".) "You are not." Then the rest of it is
the wind-up.
MR.
SALOMON:Q. Parsons replied, "You are not."
A.
Yes sir he said, "You are not". Somebody in the crowd said,
"We are ready now", and Parsons replied and said, "You
are not."
MR.
GRINNELL:Q. Well, what else do you remember, Mr. English?
A.
Oh, he talked for a long while about, out of every dollar the working
men got fifteen cents and the capitalists or employers, got eighty-five
cents. And he said he was a Knight of Lanor, a socialist, and a member
of the Typographical Union -- Oh, I don't know, he talked a long while.
Q.
Have you any more of his speeches?
A.
No more of his, no sir.
Q.
What was his manner of saying it, when he cried, "To arms, to arms".
A.
Well, just about as he had been talking. I didn't notice any difference
in him.
Q.
How was he talking?
A.
His ordinary talk.
Q.
Well, I don't know what that is?
A.
Well, he was actually -- he was a good talker.
Q.
Now, what was the next speaker?
A.
Fielden.
Q.
What did you get of Fielden?
A.
Well, he said -- the first I have of his written out was: "There
are premonitions of danger. All knew. The press say the anarchists will
sneak away; we are not going to. If we continue to be robbed it will
not be long before we will be murdered. There is no security for the
working classes under the present social system. A few individuals control
the means of living and hold the working men in a vise. Everybody does
not know that. Those who know it are tired of it, and know the others
will get tired of it too. They are determined to end it and will end
it, and there is no power in the land that will prevent them. Congressman
Foran said, `The laborer can get nothing from legislation'. He also
said that, The laborers can get some relief from their present condition
when the rich man knew it was unsafe for him to live in a community
where there were dissatisfied working men; for they would solve the
labor problem. I don't know whether you are democrats or republicans,
but whichever you are, you worship at the shrine of rebels. John Brown,
Jefferson, Patrick Henry and Hopkins said to the people, `The law is
your enemy. We are rebels against it. The law is only framed for those
that are your enslavers'. (A voice, "That is true.") Men in
their blind rage attacked McCormick's factory, and were shot down by the law in cold blood in the city of Chicago, in the protection
of property. Those men were going to do some damage to a certain person's
interest, who was a large property owner, therefore, the law came to
his defense. And when McCormick undertook to do some injury to the interest
of those who had no property, the law also came to his defense and not
to the working man's defense when he, Mr. McCormick attacked him and
his living." (Cries of, "No.") There is a difference.
The law makes no distinctions. A million men own all the property in
this country. The law has no use for the other fifty-four million."
(A voice "Right enough.") "You have nothing more to do
with the law except to lay hands on it and throttle it until it makes
its last kick. It turns your brothers out on the way side and has degraded
them until they have lost the last vestige of humanity, and they are
mere things and animals. Keep your eye upon it. Throttle it. Kill it.
Stop it. Do everything you can to wound it -- to impede its progress"
Now, here, this word, "Stop it" must be "Stab it".
"Stab it. Do everything you can to wound it -- to impede its progress.
Remember, before trusting them to do anything for yourself, prepare
to do it for yourself. Don't turn over your business to anybody else.
No man deserves anything unless he is man enough to make an effort to
lift himself from oppression." Then there was an interruption
there on account of the storm.
Q.
What was that interruption?
A.
Storm clouds. Everybody started to go away.
Q.
Anything said at that time?
A.
Yes, sir. Mr. Parsons suggested that they adjourn over to Zepf's Hall.
Q.
Did Fielden say anything?
A.
Mr. Fielden said, "No, the people were trying to get information,
and he would go on."
Q.
He would finish there.
A.
He would finish what there was then. "Is it not a fact that we
have no choice as to our existence, for we can't dictate what our labor
is worth. He that has to obey the will of any is a slave. Can we do
anything except by a conciliatory armed resistance."
Q.
Is that all?
A.
No sir, I have a little more.
Q.
Go ahead.
A.
"Socialists are not going to declare war; but I tell you war has
been declared upon us; and I ask you to get hold of anything that will
help to resist the onslaught of the enemy and the usurper. The skirmish
lines have met. People have been shot. Men, women and children have
not been spared by the capitalists, and minions of private capital.
It had no mercy; so ought you. You are called upon to defend yourselves,
your lives, your future. What matters it whether you kill yourselves
with work to get a little relief, or die on the battle field resisting
the enemy. What is the difference? Any animal, however loathsome, will
resist when stepped upon. Are men less than snails
or worms? I have some resistance in me? I know that you have too. You
have been robbed and you will be starved into a worse condition."
That is all I have.
Q.
That is all you have?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
What did you do then?
A.
Well, at that time some one alongside of me asked me if the police were
not coming. I was facing this way (showing). Fielden was over there
(showing), and that was down Desplaines Street (showing).
Q.
Facing which way. Was it north, south, east or west?
A.
Northeast.
Q.
You were facing Northeast?
A.
Northeast.
Q.
Somebody told you that the police were coming?
A.
No, he asked me if they were coming. I looked down the street and I
saw a file of police about the middle of Randolph Street. As soon as
I saw the police I put my paper in my pocket and ran right over on the
southwest corner.
Q.
Of what?
A.
Of Randolph and Desplaines.
Q.
When you got to the southwest corner of Randolph and Desplaines, where
was the front line of police?
A.
They were coming across the street.
Q.
Coming across what street?
A.
They hadn't got across the street; they were coming across Randolph.
Just about the time I reached the side walk the front rank got to the
southwest corner of Randolph and Desplaines.
MR.
BLACK: Wait a minute. Does Mr. English mean the southwest corner or
not?
A.
The northwest I mean.
MR.
GRINNELL: Q. The northwest corner of Randolph and Desplaines?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
Where did you go then?
A.
Well, I stood there until the police -- some of the police marched by,
and the first thing I knew I heard an explosion. I didn't know what
it was. And the next thing there was a volley of fifteen or twenty or
thirty shots and I thought it was about time to leave, so I skinned
down Randolph Street. While I was running I heard a great lot of shots
and somebody tumbled right in front of me; but I didn't stop to see
whether he was hurt.
Q.
Do you know who shot first?
A.
No, sir, I do not.
Q.
You didn't stay to see.
A.
No sir, I didn't stay to see.
Q.
What was the temper of the crowd that night?
A.
Just an ordinary meeting. I didn't pay any attention except to these
remarks that were made by the people occasionally in the audience.
CROSS EXAMINATION
By Mr. Foster.
Q.
It was what you call a peaceable and quiet meeting, was it not, for
an out-door meeting?
A.
I should think so, yes.
Q.
There was no great turbulence that you observed there?
A.
I didn't see any.
Q.
And you were there all the time?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
You had first to take your scratch notes the best way you could, in
your pocket; and then, because of the quietness of the meeting you deliberately
faced them right up and took them legitimately?
A.
Yes sir, I stood there, I guess, over an hour and a quarter perhaps.
Q.
Were you accustomed to hear them speak for a year or two or three years
back?
A.
Yes sir, I had heard them speak.
Q.
Well, now was there any difference? In what respect were those speeches
different from what they had been making for five or six years?
A.
Well, I thought they were a little milder.
Q.
All set speeches; about the same thing?
A.
Yes, about the same thing.
Q.
Now, hadn't you heard Parsons get off his mathematical problems before,
saying about the same thing?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Talking about the laboring men; you have heard Parsons talk about the
fifteen per cent. that the laboring man made, and that they were on
a still hunt for the other eighty five, haven't you?
A.
Well, I have heard him make the same kind of speeches.
Q.
On that point?
A.
Yes, pretty much the same thing.
Q.
They were always talking about striking the enemy, and the only way
of regulating their rights was by force?
A.
Yes, by force.
Q.
The same kind of force that they had been talking about for a half dozen
years?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
You say Parsons said -- when the crowd said -- "We are ready to
do it now" -- or was it Spies?
A
No, that was Parsons.
Q.
Parsons said -- somebody in the crowd said, "We are ready to do
it now." That is to resist open war.
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
And he says, "You are not"?
A.
He says, "You are not".
Q.
Now then, there is a portion here of what Mr. Parsons said that I think
you didn't read. Didn't Mr. Parsons on that occasion say: "No,
you are not ready now;" and began to talk of civilization as founded
upon force. And began to talk about the legal effect, and that it had
to be undermined by force?
A.
Yes, that was sometime after that. He said that civilization was founded
on force and they could only overturn it by force; but not at that time.
Q.
You heard him say that for at least five or six years?
A.
Yes sir, substantially that.
Q.
You didn't hear any of them saying, or advising, that they were going
to use force that night?
A.
No sir.
Q.
Parsons said in so many words that they were not ready? Parsons said
that and neither Fielden or Spies said that they were ready?
A.
I didn't understand them to say so.
Q.
But Spies did say that they shouldn't make any threats?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
He said that in response to a man that raised up from the audience?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
And said in addition to that -- prefaced his remark by the statement
that, "this is not a meeting to excite you."
A.
No sir, he didn't say that.
Q.
What was it?
A.
He said that, the authorities seemed to have the impression was called
for the purpose of raising a little row and disturbance, but that wasn't
the purpose of the committee that called the meeting it was for the
purpose of discussing the general situation of the eight hour strike,
and what had occurred in the city for the last forty-eight hours.
Q.
He said that it was not called for the purpose of raising a disturbance,
substantially at that time?
A.
That is what he said.
Q.
You said that Parsons suggested when the cloud came over them, they
had better adjourn to Zepf's Hall?
A.
Yes, sir that is what I have here; and if he said different I would have
it, because I have known Mr. Parsons for a number of years.
Q.
Now, don't you know as a matter of fact that upon Parsons suggestion
being defeated, that he withdrew from the wagon and went to Zepf's Hall?
A.
I don't know anything about that. I didn't see him afterwards.
Q.
Did you see Mrs. Parsons on the wagon at that time?
A.
No sir. I didn't see her at all.
Q.
Didn't see her at all.
A.
No sir.
Q.
Now, you say Mr. Fielden said in his speech that "The socialists
are not going to declare war, but I say to you that war has been declared
upon them?"
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
And taking that meeting as a whole, and every speech as a whole of both
Spies and Parsons and Fielden, you say that they were more conciliatory,
more mild, and less inflammatory than they had been accustomed to deliver
for years?
A.
Well, I have heard more inflammatory speeches.
Q.
When you went to the Tribune office, you were instructed by the person
over you to merely cut out parts of the speeches and print just what
was the most inflammatory?
A.
No, not at that time. Before I went to the meeting my instructions were
to take only the most incendiary parts of the speeches.
Q.
Yes, those are the words, "The most incendiary parts". So
the idea was to have the incendiary language without having
the conciliatory accompaniments?
A.
Oh, well, enough of it to show the connection.
Q.
Now, didn't Mr. Parsons -- don't you remember that Mr. Parsons said,
in speaking of the Cincinnati meeting, that he had been at Cincinnati
only the Sunday before and had just arrived home that day?
A.
Yes, I think he said that.
Q.
You remember of his stating that in his speech?
A.
I remember I don't know about on Sunday. I think he said he had been
in Cincinnati; had seen the procession, and told about it.
Q.
Didn't he say that he had just returned home that day?
A.
I don't recollect that.
Q.
You don't remember?
A.
No sir.
MR.
FOSTER: That is all.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.
By Mr. Grinnell.
Q.
Mr. English, Mr. Foster has used the expression that his speeches were
mild -- these speeches were mild, and among other words, he has used
the word "conciliatory".
A.
Oh mildly conciliatory.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.
By Mr. Foster.
Q.
Just one question more. Mr. English did you hear Captain
Ward's announcement to the crowd to disperse?
A.
Well, I don't know whether it was Ward or Bonfield.
Q.
Well, you heard the words?
A.
I heard the words as I understood them.
Q.
How near were you at the time?
A.
I was on the northwest corner.
Q.
You could hear distinctly?
A.
Yes sir.
Q.
And you could hear what Mr. Fielden said as you walked away?
A.
Well, I didn't pay any attention to that as I left.
Q.
Well, did you hear Mr. Fielden say any such words as these, in a loud
tone of voice, "There come the bloodhounds now, you do your duty
and I will do mine."
MR.
GRINNELL: I object.
THE
COURT: He may state whether he heard those words?
A.
No sir, I did not.
Q.
You heard nothing of that import at all?
A.
No sir.
MR.
GRINNELL: Q. You didn't
even hear
the words, "We are peaceable".
A.
No sir.
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