The
People of the State of Illinois vs. August Spies et al.
Transcript of witness testimony: Carter H. Harrison, Mayor, City of
Chicago
Witness for the Defense, August 2, 1886
And
thereupon the defendants to maintain their cause offered the following
evidence.
August 2nd, 1886, ten o'clock A. M.
Court met pursuant to adjournment.
CARTER
A. HARRISON, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the defendants
was examined in chief by Mr. Black and testified as follows:
Q Will
you state your full name, please?
A Carter
H. Harrison.
Q Where
do you reside?
A Ashland
Avenue, Chicago.
Q You
are Mayor of the City of Chicago?
A I
am.
Q And
have been for how long a time?
A Over
seven years---seven years last May.
Q You
occupied that position then on May 4th?
A I
did.
Q Are
you personally acquainted with any of the defendants in this case?
A Two
of them, Mr. Spies and Mr. Parsons; slightly, however, with Mr. Spies.
Q How
long have you known them respectively?
A Mr.
Spies merely by introduction, and I have a vague recollection that I
talked with him a little while, Mr. Parsons some time last year or the
year before last in a conversation at my office.
Q Were
you in the City of Chicago on the 4th of May, the night of the 4th of
May, 1886?
A I
was.
Q Did
you attend the haymarket meeting so called, the meeting on Desplaines
street, at which the tragedy of May 4th, the evening of May 4th, occurred?
A A
part of it, not the whole.
Q Will
you state please how you came to go to that meeting or what led you
to go to that meeting---I am not asking your motives, but whatever may
have transpired or occurred that led you to go to that meeting, and
at what hour you reached the ground?
MR.
GRINNELL: He at first asks the motive and hedges on it to the last.
THE
COURT: The question is rather ambigous and voluminous.
MR.
BLACK: Do you understand the question?
A I
understand the question.
MR.
GRINNELL: Let him answer then.
THE
WITNESS: On the day before there was a riot at McCormick's factory.
There was some large number of windows destroyed and some shooting.
That riot was said to me to have grown out of a speech made in the prairie
by Mr. Spies. During the morning of the 4th, probably about noon, information
came to me of the issuance of a circular of a very peculiar character,
and a call for a meeting at haymarket that night. I called to the chief
of police, and directed him that if anything should be said at that
meeting that was likely to call out a recurrence of such proceedings
as were at McCormick's factory, that the meeting should be dispersed.
I believed that it was better for myself to be there
and to disperse it myself, instead of leaving it to any policeman. I
thought that my order would be better obeyed. I went there then for
the purpose if I felt it necessary, for the safety of the city, to disperse
that meeting.
Q What
hour did you reach the scene?
A About
five minutes before eight.
Q At
what time with reference to your arrival upon the ground did the meeting
in fact gather?
A There
was a large concourse of people about the haymarket, in the street and
on the sidewalk, walking up and down. It was so long before any speaking
commenced that probably that two thirds of the people there assembled
left apparently, at least to me. Of course I could not tell how many,
because the same man might walk back and forth, but that is the way
it struck me. It was somewhere at least about half past eight I should
judge when the meeting as such, where the speaking took place, congregated
around Crane's building or the alley near it.
Q Were
you there at the time the meeting was called to order?
A I
was there, but not directly in the meeting. I was on the haymarket,
about the corner of Randolph and Desplaines, the south-west corner.
Q Did
you hear the meeting called to order?
A I
didn't hear the immediate call. I went over to it, then Mr. Spies was
speaking when I got into it so I was close enough
to hear. He probably had been speaking a minute, maybe two, before I
got near enough to hear distinctly what he said.
Q How
long did you remain at the meeting or upon the ground?
A I
don't remember looking at my watch, but judging from the time when the
bomb sounded and the time it took me to walk away, I the next day reached
the conclusion that I left it between 10 and 10.05 o'clock.
Q What
speakers did you hear addressing the crowd?
A I
heard all except probably a minute or a minute and a half of Mr. Spies,
and all of Mr. Parsons up to the time I left, with the exception of
a break when I left him talking and went over to the station, probably
being absent five minutes; maybe five to ten minutes.
Q At
what portion either with reference to substance or with reference to
time of Mr. Parson's remarks was it that you went to the station, and
that this break occurred?
A That
I couldn't tell positively.
Q Do
you remember whether it was nearer the beginning of his address or near
the close?
A It
was nearer--- to make you understand---I heard all of Mr. Parson's speech,
the beginning of it, until I should judge he was looking towards a close.
I went over to the station, spoke to Capt. Bonfield and determined to
go home, but instead of going immediately, I went back to hear a little
more and then left. Probably I was there then five minutes.
Q
While you were there upon this return, did Mr. Parsons close his remarks?
A No
sir.
Q He
was still speaking?
A I
left him speaking, but being a public speaker and having listened to
a great many, I thought he was reaching the conclusion.
Q Within
how long a time after you left the ground did you hear the explosion
that you have referred to?
A That
I have to measure by the time it took me to walk. I live about a mile
and a quarter from the haymarket. I walked very rapidly, reached my
home, undressed and was about ready to go to bed when I heard the bomb---I
judge about twenty minutes from the time that I left. That is the way
I say about 10.05 that I left, because of measuring it. I did not look
at my watch, but I did look at my watch or my clock just after hearing
the bomb, because I went down and commenced telephoning at once to the
central station.
Q What
part of the ground were you on while you were attending this meeting,
Mr. Harrison?
A
I was about the center of Desplaines street, probably a little nearer
the west of the center than the east---that is, a little more than half
of Desplaines street was between me and its Eastern curb. I was not
at one fixed point. I moved back and forth, sometimes a little to to
the north of the speakers, but most of the time to the south of them.
Q Did
you notice the location of the alley that runs parallel with Randolph
street, and immediately south of the Crane Bros'. establishment that
night?
A I
noticed it, when I first went up I remember thinking that they had erected
a stand just north of the alley, but hadn't noticed it when I first
went down. I didn't know that they were on a wagon.
Q In
other words, when you first went down there, you didn't observe any
stand but when you found them speaking you supposed they had erected
one?
A I
saw afterwards they were on a wagon.
Q You
did see afterwards while the meeting was in progress that it was a truck
wagon?
A Yes
sir, something of the sort.
Q Was
your presence at the meeting or in the meeting observed, if you know?
A I
thought that Mr. Spies observed me from the fact that the tone of his
speech very suddenly changed when I had struck a match to light my cigar,
the full flame of the match shining in my face, and when it died out
I saw the people around me as far as from here to the court were looking
towards me, and I saw that I was observed, and remarked to my son that
was by me that I thought Mr. Spies had seen me. That is a mere conjecture.
Q You
know your presence was observed by numbers of the people in the audience?
A I
should judge I could see the eyes of probably twenty-five
to fifty men looking towards me.
Q Did
you have any conversation that evening with any citizens who knew you
or recognized you?
A One
man came to me and remarked "You are known here". Says I,
"I am very glad of it."
Q Can
you recall substantially the tenor of the remarks or the substance of
the remarks made by Mr. Spies in your hearing?
A A
part of that speech, for probably a minute was such that I feared that
it was leading up to such that it would force me to disperse the meeting.
Q You
were there for that purpose?
A I
was there for that purpose. When I say for that purpose, it was my own
determination to do it against the will of the police.
Q I
understand. I mean you had adopted the resolution to do it personally
if it became necessary in your judgment?
A Yes
sir; Mr. Spies, a part of his speech was of the character that I thought
was leading up to it, and it was just after I lit my match, I say---my
cigar goes out a great deal, and I use more matches than I do cigars
a good deal---I struck it, and the first one went out. I put two together,
and the flame was wide and it made quite a blaze in my face. Almost
immediately afterwards I noticed this change in the tone of his speech,
and as I say, I turned to my son and said, "Spies has seen me."
Q
About what time of Spies' speech was it that this change in the tenor
of the remarks occurred, as you judge?
A Do
you mean as to time or as to what he was saying?
Q As
to time?
A It
was in the first half of his speech at least.
Q In
other words, before the middle of it?
A Before
the middle of his speech.
Q After
this occurrence what was the general tenor of his speech?
A Such
that I remarked to Capt. Bonfield that it was tame. Prior to that it
was not.
Q When
was this interview you had with Capt. Bonfield of which you have spoken
when you remarked that Spies' speech was tame?
A That
was when I left the speaking. I went over to Mr. Bonfield to the station.
MR.
GRINNELL: I don't think it is proper to state what occurred over there
between him and Mr. Bonfield.
MR.
BLACK: I asked when it was?
A That
was the time I left.
Q While
Parsons was speaking?
A While
Parsons was speaking, thinking that I might go home, and then had the
interview with Mr. Bonfield, but afterwards as I say, concluded that
I would return and listen to something more to satisfy myself I could
go home.
Q Up
to the time you went to the station, and had this interview with Mr.
Bonfield, what was the tenor of Mr. Parsons's address?
MR.
GRINNELL: What did he say as near as you can remember?
THE
WITNESS: Oh well, it was what I would call----
MR.
GRINNELL: State his words as near as you can, because what the tenor
of it was is for the jury to determine.
A The
part that was somewhat directed to the crowd, and that attracted the
most attention was the statistics as to the amounts of returns given
to labor from capital, and showing, if I remember rightly now, that
capital got eighty-five per cent and labor fifteen per cent. It was
what I would call a violent political harrangue against capital but
nothing while I was there that would----
MR.
GRINNELL: (Interrupting) State what he said. Don't draw inferences.
A I
couldn't repeat what he said---that is, in words. I can repeat the substance.
MR.
BLACK: Q Did anything transpire in the address of either Mr. Spies or
Mr. Parsons after the incident of the lighting of your cigar to which
you have referred in the course of Spies' remarks, that led you to conclude
to take any action with reference to the dispersing of the meeting?
Objected to; objection sustained; exception by
defendants.
Q
Was any action taken by you at any time looking to the dispersion of
that meeting?
Objected to.
THE
COURT: How is that material?
MR.
BLACK: As part of the res gestae. He was there as the representative
of the police. He was there as the chief officer of the city---the mayor.
THE
COURT: He may tell what he did.
MR.
BLACK: Q Was any action taken by you at any time while you were at that
meeting?
THE
COURT: At the meeting---whether the mayor said or did anything at the
meeting about dispersing it--that is competent.
MR.
GRINNELL: The question calls for yes or no. It should be answered that
way if possible.
THE
WITNESS: No.
MR.
BLACK: Q Did you observe any violence or misconduct in the meeting on
the part either of the speakers or the audience. I refer now to acts,
and if so, what?
MR.
GRINNELL: Let him state what was said and done. I object.
THE
COURT: It calls for the witness to form a conclusion in his own mind
as to what constitutes violence or misconduct.
The defendants' counsel then and there excepted
to the ruling of the court.
MR.
BLACK: Q Will you state what occurred during the meeting, either upon
the part of the speakers or upon the part of the audience of a violent
nature?
Objected to.
THE
COURT: If you want him to repeat what he heard said, that is competent.
MR.
BLACK: I am not asking what he heard said. I am asking as to what he
saw done.
MR.
GRINNELL: Then leave out the words "violent nature" and let
him state what was said and done.
The court sustained the objection; to which ruling
of the court defendants' counsel then and there excepted.
MR.
BLACK: Q Will you state what if anything occurred there at the meeting
that attracted your attention with reference to the behavior either
of the speaker or of the audience?
Objected to.
THE
COURT: I think that calls for a description of whatever attracted his
attention. Of course a man can describe that.
THE
WITNESS: I should be compelled to answer what was said, because that
was what I was watching.
THE
COURT: That calls for conduct and words.
THE
WITNESS: The words of Mr. Spies were, as near as I can remember, that
attracted my particular attention, were these: "Why this gathering
together of the policemen, or blue-coats?" (I have forgotten which,
I think "policemen.") Why this array of patrol wagons? Why
the militia armed and collected at the armories, and the Gatling gun
in readiness? Why were our brethren shot down at McCormick's hall or
McCormick's factory yesterday afternoon?" Then he went on to show---the
words I don't remember, that it was for the oppression of the laborer.
That was what attracted my attention by reason of a rumor I had heard
that night. That I did not give, because you have not asked for it.
MR.
GRINNELL: I wish you would state that rumor, because Capt. Black did
in fact ask you what caused you to go over there.
THE
COURT: Wait for the cross examination for that.
THE
WITNESS: When each of these questions were put, some one in the audience
would holler out "Shoot them," "Hang them." When
it reached McCormick's name they said "Hang him" "damn
him," or something of that sort. Frequently during both of the
speeches some one in the crowd would cry out "hang him" or
"shoot him" --something of that sort. But I concluded that
these expressions did not eminate--
MR.
GRINNELL: Your conclusions we ought not to take.
THE
WITNESS: I am trying to measure the numbers. These replies that were made
from the crowd, I don't think from the manner where they occurred, here
and there and around, that there were more than two or three hundred
absolute sympathizers with the speakers. Once or twice, or two or three
times, cries out of "hang him" would come from a boy, somewhere
in the out skirts, and the crowd would laugh. I felt that the majority
of that crowd were idle spectators and the replies nearly as much as
what might be called "guying" to use a slang expression, as
much so as absolute applause. Some of the replies were evidently bitter,
I should say, judging from where they came from. They came from immediately
around the stand.
MR.
GRINNELL: Q That is these bitter cries?
A Yes
sir. And did not come from more than two or three hundred men, not over
that I judge.
MR.
BLACK: Q With reference to the total number in the audience was this
proportion of men that were apparently as you say, and answering bitterly,
large or small?
A The
audience numbered somewhere from eight hundred to a thousand, I should
judge, walking round them. I didn't get immediately around the speakers.
They were packed. I didn't get into that crowd.
Q That
packed and dense mass immediately around the speaker, did not extend
more than to the center of the street?
A Not
to the center. It was more up and down the street, and apparently behind.
When I speak of the center of the street, I speak
with reference to the curb, the road way. I measured them from two to
four hundred that these various replies that showed a sympathy would
spring from. Outside of that there were probably six hundred, from four
to six hundred that looked to me from the replies and the laughter more
as idle spectators, judging from the remarks made immediately around
more than anything else.
Q You
have had more or less experience with reference to street crowds in
estimating their numbers etc?
A I
have; but here I couldn't measure them well, because I was nowhere high
enough to look down upon them. I could only measure by being on the
same plane with them, and measure the distance that they covered.
Q Apart
from the portion of the audience that stood immediately about the speakers,
referring now to this larger portion as I understand you which was out
on the outskirts, what was the character of the audience now of this
larger outside portion, judging from their appearance?
A You
mean the character of the men, their occupations?
Q Yes,
their appearance, and what you judge in reference to them from that
appearance?
MR.
GRINNELL: Do you mean as to whether they were merchants or laboring
men?
MR.
BLACK: Yes, who they were?
MR.
GRINNELL: I object to that. He may give a general description of those
individuals but he need not try to place them in
any employment---that is mere conjecture.
THE
COURT: I think that is admissible. It is impossible to describe each
individual; but what class of people they were composed of, what nationalities
and what their occupations were, I think that is admissible.
THE
WITNESS: Up to the time that the speaking began when I walked among
the people on the haymarket, during nearly half an hour---not all that
time walking, for I went back and forth to the station---they were apparently
laborers, generally or mechanics, and the majority of them Germans or
non-English speaking people. The Poles and Bohemians I could not recognize
one from the other. The Germans I could hear them talking and could
understand what they said, but indistinctly. I thought the majority
of them were Germans, Poles and Bohemians; mostly Germans that I heard
talking.
MR.
BLACK: Q What was your observations to the character of the audience
after the speaking began?
A It
was too dark, and the faces being toward the speaker, and therefore
their backs to me, I could not judge of that, and did not attempt to
analyze it.
Q In
what language was the speaking that night?
A English.
Q All
of it that you heard?
A All.
Q You
have spoken of cries coming from the audience or some portion of the
audience in response to the speakers--- allusions of "Hang him",
or some such similar expression. Do you remember
any response to any such cries made by either of the speakers whom you
listened to?
A I
can't recall any words. I remember that some of the expressions in the
audience were replied to by the speakers, but I couldn't remember them:
I could not recall them now, They were the general replies and very
rarely, only a few of them.
Q Let
me ask you specially---do you remember while Parsons was speaking as
to whether there was any use by him of the name Gould which elicited
any response from the audience of the nature you have suggested?
A I
think it was with regard to Gould that a boy hollered out "Hang
him" and another "Hang him, damn him".
Q Do
you recall whether or not that elicited any response or observation
from Mr. Parsons, and if so, what?
A That
is very vague and having read something that was said, I might possibly
have made up, been refreshed by others, but it seems to me that either
Parsons or Spies to some such expression used the expression "Not
yet" or something of that sort.
Q Was
there any proposal or suggestion on the part of either of the speakers
during your audience there that in terms called for immediate violence
of any character, of force toward any persons?
Objected to.
THE
COURT: Whatever Mr. Harrison can remember was said,
let him repeat, but you are calling now for a general conclusion.
MR.
GRINNELL: Mr. Harrison has given what he says he can remember.
MR.
BLACK: I am now suggesting as I understand the rule is, to the witness
the special subject matter on which I want his recollection.
THE
COURT: It calls for a general conclusion.
MR.
BLACK: I will change the form of the question then to meet the suggestion
of the court.
Q State
whether or not you recall any suggestion made by either of the speakers
looking toward caling for the immediate use of force or violence towards
any person? If so, what was the remark?
A You
mean by immediate, that night?
Q Yes
sir.
A There
was not. If there had been I should have dispersed them at once.
Q How
long were you at the meeting after your return from the station, and
before you started home?
A Probably
five minutes.
Q Parsons
then was still speaking, but approaching the close?
A Evidently
approaching a close. It looked a little like rain. It was becoming cloudy
and looked like and it was threatening rain, and I thought the thing
was about over.
Q
As to the size of the audience, how did it compare at that time with
its size earlier in the evening?
A There
was not a fourth there listening to the speaking of the crowd that had
been there during the evening.
Q In
other words it had fallen off a great deal?
A Yes
sir. In the crowd when they were walking around I heard a great many
Germans use expressions that showed that they were dissatisfied with
bringing them there and having this peaking. There was evidently a belief
on the part of the bulk of the people that there was going to be no
speaking. I had reached that conclusion myself and thought the thing
was over; and when the speaking did commence I thought it was a spontaneous
one, because some persons cried out "Mayor Harrison is going to
speak," and I thought it was rather a spontaneous one.
Q What
do you judge as to the number in attendance around the wagon at the
time you left finally for the evening?
A It
was still less. Mark you, it is very difficult to measure a crowd in
the dark that way unless one is on top. Coming directly out of the light
to where the lamp post was, and out of the station, going up to it,
it would look very large. It would take a minute or two to accustom
the eye to it to measure them. There was even then quite a large number
there. I don't suppose there was over five hundred that were there when
I left last, but of course I didn't measure them
accurately.
Q How
long was the interview you had with Inspector Bonfield, you have called
him Capt. Bonfield-- -I suppose that is the same person?
A That
is the expression we use, Captain.
Q How
long was that interview?
A Probably
five minutes.
Q Please
state what it was?
Objected to.
MR.
BLACK: It is admissible upon our theory of the defense. We propose to
show by this witness that in the course of that interview, he had a
talk with Capt. Bonfield, submitted to him his views as to the nature
of the audience, and communicated to him the fact that he did not think
there would be any trouble; that the meeting was a quiet and orderly
meeting as such meetings went; and that he was about to go home and
also directed that the police patrolmen which had been held under his
direction at the other stations should be directed to go home; and having
given these directions to Capt. Bonfield, he himself went home.
MR.
GRINNELL: Was Capt. Bonfield asked any questions of that character?
Q Of
what character?
THE
COURT: They don't offer it as any impeaching testimony but offer it
as independent original testimony. I don't think it is admissible.
MR.
BLACK: We propose to follow that up by other testimony which will show
that the attack made by the police that night upon the meeting was a
deliberate attack planned and carried out after Mr. Harrison's departure.
THE
COURT: Save the point on it. If there is anything in the nature of self
defense, it depends upon what occurred at the time and place, and not
previous conversation.
MR.
BLACK: That is not the theory upon which we present it, as bearing upon
the question of self defense. We present it as part of the res gestae,
showing that the entire trouble of that night arose out of a deliberate
action on the part of the policemen, in disregard of the suggestions
made by Mr. Harrison.
THE
COURT: That is not admissible. What anybody thought about the matter
beforehand is not part of the case.
MR.
GRINNELL: I will withdraw the objection and let him answer the question.
If the question can be confined to what if any orders Mr. Harrison gave
Bonfield.
MR.
BLACK: My question calls for what conversation occurred between Capt.
Bonfield and yourself upon that occasion?
MR.
GRINNELL: The conversation may be irrelevant to this issue but if any
orders were given by Harrison to Bonfield that night with refernece
to that meeting, let it come in.
MR.
FOSTER: That leaves for the witness to judge what is an order. The jury
are to determine that.
MR.
GRINNELL: What you want is in regard to this matter that night?
MR.
BLACK: That is what I want.
THE
WITNESS: I went back to the station and stated to Bonfield that I thought
the speeches were about to be over; that nothing had occurred yet, or
looked likely to occur to require interference, and I thought he had
better issue orders to his reserves at that other stations to go home.
He replied to me that he had learned the same and reached that conclusion
from persons coming and going---he had men out all the time---and had
already issued the order; that he thought it would be best to retain
the men that were in the station until the meeting broke up, and then
referred to a rumor that he had heard that night that would make it
necessary for him, he thought, to keep his men there, which I concurred
in. Do you want that rumor?
MR.
ZEISLER: That was not in reference to the haymarket?
THE
WITNESS: The rumor had reached us---
MR.
GRINNELL: Yes, it is a part of that conversation and it should all go
in.
MR.
BLACK: The question is whether we want it in. Probably we had better
leave it to you as you seem to know all about it.
MR.
GRINNELL: I know all about it.
THE
WITNESS: It referred to what would occur as the following up of the
haymarket meeting.
MR.
BLACK: Q In other words, what might occur?
A No,
the rumor which reached us was that something would occur.
MR.
BLACK: I think I will leave the state to call that out, if they desire,
as I don't know anything about it.
MR.
GRINNELL: That was in that conversation.
THE
COURT: It can come in on cross examination.
MR.
BLACK: Q When you were there attending the meeting, did you at any time
see any weapons in the hands of any of the audience pointed upwards
or brandished?
A I
saw no weapons at all upon any person.
Cross Examination by
MR. GRINNELL:
Q The
haymarket riot was on the night of the 4th of May. On that day, or at
noon, or about that time you had heard a rumor about a projected attempt
to burn the freight house of the Milwaukee & St. Paul Ry. Company,
had you not, which caused you to go over there and watch that meeting;
that night?
Objected to; objection sustained.
Q You
may state what conversation you and Capt. Bonfield had with reference
to rumors which caused you to go over there that night?
MR.
BLACK: Any part of the same conversation, but not other conversation.
MR.
GRINNELL: I want the rumor first which caused Harrison
to go over there.
MR.
BLACK: If you ask for conversation with Bonfield before Harrison went
there I object.
THE
WITNESS: I would answer that Bonfield and I made arrangements to go
over there---is that objected to?
MR.
BLACK: The reason of those arrangements the court sustains an objection
to.
MR.
GRINNELL: Capt. Black asked what caused Harrison to go over to the haymarket
square that night?
MR.
BLACK: In the course of this conversation he said he heard a rumor which
in fluenced him. I did not ask for the rumor. It would be proper for
the State to ask simply what was that rumor.
MR.
GRINNELL: Q What was that rumor?
A The
rumor that I adverted to but did not give, was immediately after my
reaching the station. Capt. Bonfield told me that he had just received
information that this meeting would, or a part of it adjourn or go over
to the Milwaukee & St. Paul freight houses that were then filled
up with what they call scabs, and blow it up; and then there was also
an intimation that this meeting might be merely a ruse to attract the
attention of the police to the haymarket while the real attack if any
should be made that night would be on McCormick's. Now, it was with
regard to those two possible, if not probable contingencies that I was
listening to those speeches.
Q In listening to those speeches did you ascertain
from them that there was no organization and no invitation to the Milwaukee
& St. Pal depot?
A Yes
sir.
Q And
therefore you concluded that it was not an organization to destroy property
that night, and therefore went home?
A That
was the fact.
Q Just
before you went home you left it with Capt. Bonfield to watch the speeches
and if they became inflammatory or incendiary to disperse the meeting?
Objected to.
THE
COURT: Let him repeat what conversation he had with Inspector Bonfield
in reference to that.
THE
WITNESS: The order was that the reserves held at the other stations
might be sent home, because I learned that all was quiet down in the
second district in which McCormick's was; and that I thought there was
no design for anything that night. Bonfield replied that he had reached
the same conclusion from reports brought in to him, and he had already
ordered the reserves elsewhere sent home, or, at least, given them a
rest, let them go in their regular order, but that if something might
occur yet before this meeting was over or after it, that he would hold
the men that were in the station until everything was over. I acquiesced
in his suggestion. I didn't give an order, because
I merely consented to his view.
Q His
official position allowed him to execute his own orders?
A Of
course he was there in control. Bonfield was there, detailed by the
chief, in control of that meeting together with Capt. Ward.
Q Did
you hear any response by the crowd to any of the speakers, and was anything
said by the speakers to whom you listened, either Spies or Parsons,
anything suggested by them as to threats. For instance, you have given
something in regard to that matter, that they said "Don't make
any idle threats. If you have anything to do go and do it." Did
you hear words of that character?
A I
don't remember any such expression, because, mark you, I was thinking
only of what might occur that night. I was determined that there should
be no re-occurrence of the violence at McCormick's hall; that if there
was an overt act, it would be caught in its incipiency and not wait
until it took absolute form.
Q You
heard none of Fielden's speech?
A None
at all, nor the last of Parsons.
Q Did
you hear Parsons call "To arms, to arms, to arms" while you
were there?
A I
don't remember it. I don't think I did, for if I had I think I should
have noticed it. Mark you, I lit my cigar four or five times, and I
thought I was known.
Q
Did you do that for the purpose of showing yourself to the speaker,
if possible, or attracting his attention?
Objected to; objection sustained.
THE
COURT: Q These reserves you speak of were at other police stations than
Desplaines street?
A We
had the reserves at every station in the City. The reserves however,
for the second district were to be directly under Capt. O'Donnell, so
as to proceed if anything occurred in the second district at McCormick's
factory.
Q The
reserves to whom you were to give the rest and permit them to go home,
were at other stations than Desplaines street?
A Other
station, than Desplaines---about fifty men at each station.
MR.
BLACK: Q Do you know how many men were at the Desplaines street station
that evening, or about how many at the time of this interview with Capt.
Bonfield?
A I
don't remember. I don't know the numbers. I suppose from 125 to 175,
men, but I am not certain.
Q Did
you get this rumor of the possibility of an attack upon McCormick's
and also upon the Milwaukee freight house from any other source than
from Capt. Bonfield?
A The
fact is, when I speak of a rumor, it was not a rumor from others. It
was rather a fear on my own part and was suggested first by myself that
this might be the aim of this meeting.
Q
It was not something then as I understand you that you had heard coming
from other sources?
A Not
other sources.
Q But
an apprehension of yours?
A An
apprehension rather than a rumor. There was a direct statement from
Mr. Bonfield to me that he had heard----
Q (Interrupting)
About the McCormick matter?
A No
sir, about the freight houses.
Q So
far as McCormick was concerned there was no rumor, except an apprehension
on your part, and as to the freight house it was a rumor which you had
from Bonfield alone?
A Yes
sir, that was his report to me as my second in command there.
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